nenena | Jaw meets floor.

Entry tags:

translation wank gets its own tag now

Jaw meets floor.

Oh my. It's been a good several years since the last time that I've had the comments section of a post devolve into such a stunning example of case in fucking point.

Edited to add: Okay, look. I am hardly the only person who has publicly called out

proglution and the others in that thread on

bleachness for their BS. Many, many people on fandom_wank are making the same points.

kuromitsu in particular is someone whose opinion ought to carry some weight, being a damn good translator of Japanese.

Protip: It is never a good idea to start a wank about translation by insulting a professional translator, and it makes you look like even more of an ass when you then go on to twist around and bullshit about what was actually said. When enough people with enough accumulated knowledge among them are continually pointing out that you are wrong, then it is time to step back and consider the possibility that maybe you might be wrong.

proglution and

suzukaze are right to argue in my previous post that pobody's nerfect. The same applies to them as well. I have had people more knowledgeable than me point out my translation errors before. And I've corrected them right away. It does nobody any favors to write ten pages worth of comments defending your shitty translation and continuing to insist that the professional interpreter in question was "misleading" when she wasn't.

This, then. This is pretty much the perfect example of the type of posturing behavior that I was trying to call out in my first post.

ETA again: Meni just pointed out one of the bigger, ickier issues that got buried by the translation wank, and I tried to articulate a coherent response on the matter. But this is another one of the things that I wanted to discuss in my first post (before it got so spectacularly derailed): the difference between showing cultural knowledge vs. expressing stereotypes. There's definitely a Pretendian/Wapanese inclination to attempt to speak for people from other cultures, rather than letting them speak for themselves. And that is exactly what happened in Moritagate, when the shippers relied on oversimplified, essentializing cultural stereotypes to deny the possibility that Morita might actually mean what he straight-up said. Talk about twisting cultural knowledge to fit a personal agenda.

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Holy wall of text Batman! Those two just keep digging themselves deeper and deeper!

And I had to giggle when you said that

proglution seemed "pretty fucking smart." Methinks you're being far too generous to her.

Yeah, in light of the way that the whole "yappari" thing is developing, I'm inclined to want to take it back.

Since their argument seems to be that Morita was just trying to go along with the crowd, you'd think that pointing out how "yappari" can function as a statement of agreement would support their case, rather than undermine it. Yet they still both devote pages and pages of comments to defending

proglution's statement that "yappari" doesn't mean agreement. It's just boggling. Absolutely boggling.

NGL, though, I do appreciate the sources they've been linking me to. That thesis in particular was kickass awesome. It doesn't actually support either of their wankery positions, but it did make for some excellent reading.

Yet they still both devote pages and pages of comments to defending [info]proglution's statement that "yappari" doesn't mean agreement.

Yeah, when you've sunk to the level of essentially saying that "blue" actually means "orange," and you're doing it to justify shipping preferences, then you qualify as neither smart nor sane.

I also enjoyed the bit where

proglution claimed that

jaseroque's translation was tainted with shipping bias, because from what I can tell

jaseroque doesn't even read Bleach! She doesn't even know who these characters are! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

So what does "yappari" actually mean? (Since I know about five words of Japanese and none of them are that one.)

It indicates definitiveness, expectation, agreement, and/or combinations of all of the above.

WWWJDIC (http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?1C) says: "also; as I thought; still; in spite of [something else]; absolutely; of course."

SpaceALC online dictionary says (http://eow.alc.co.jp/%A4%E4%A4%C3%A4%D1%A4%EA/EUC-JP/): "all in all, as suspected, as was expected, after all."

I also enjoyed the bit where proglution claimed that [info]jaseroque's translation was tainted with shipping bias, because from what I can tell jaseroque doesn't even read Bleach! She doesn't even know who these characters are! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

To be fair,

proglution never accused

jaseroque of shipping bias. She did say that

jaseroque's translations were misleading and would cause confusion. Which is bullshit, of course. But if we're going to accuse someone of bullshit then we need to stick with what they actually said.

She accused the panel interpreter of shipping bias, though, which is far more offensive and stupid in my book.

Edited 2010-04-24 22:33 (UTC)

Ah okay, I mixed up the translators.

jaseroque's translation did cause confusion, but only because the shippers are idiots whose fervent devotion to wishful thinking impedes their ability to read.

There went my morning.

People astound me.

Word about growing up in the "Dark Ages", though, since DiC Sailor Moon was my gateway anime as well, lol.

... I thought I had more to say in response, but my mind is drawing a blank. But yes, posturing is really a sucky sucky thing.

People astound me.

Me too.

Oh dear. I'm sorry that your interesting post about a much wider issue had to be derailed by two lunatics who are so blinded by confirmation bias and self-importance that they, it seems, wouldn't be able see the point of what you are trying to say even if it came to their doorstep with a marching band. While wearing a name tag.

But yes. A shining example of case in point, I guess.

P.S. After reading your recap of Soul Eater Chapter 73, I've finally caved in and decided to give the manga a shot despite it being quite different from stuff I usually tend to like. About 17 hours later I had finished all currently outstanding chapters and was quite addicted to it. Thanks for the (indirect) recommendation!

*reposed due to spectacular editing fail*

About 17 hours later I had finished all currently outstanding chapters and was quite addicted to it. Thanks for the (indirect) recommendation!

(*steeples fingers eeeeeevilly*) Excellent. Welcome to the dark side!

what I find most boggling is that all this vitrol and heat over a voice actor's personal shipping preferences. Who cares? It has no effect on canon, and even if your favorite pairing is jossed there's always fandom to play in. I understand it's always sweeter to see the creator agrees with you (Mai/Zuko OTP!) but it's really not that big a deal.

+ one million points for Kate Beaton icon!!!

Yeah, this whole thing is just stupid on so many levels. Especially when the people wanking about the panel interpreter's translation claim not to be invested in the shipping war... Yet their argument has now mutated into "well yes admittedly Morita literally said NO DUH ORIHIME but we know that he couldn't have actually meant what he said because ~~we can read his mind~~ CULTURE!!!1!1! so it's vital to change the translation to indicate that he didn't really mean what he said or else THE FANS WILL FLIP THEIR SHIT!!"

This is not a line of argumentation that actually convinces me that they're not invested in the shipping war.

I love icons made from her comics.

It's not just a river in Egypt, folks. Geez. Regardless of whether or not he actually meant it, HE SAID IT. It doesn't help when you deliberately change the translation to make it look better for your ship ("part of your soul"=!"part of yourself").

No no no no, see, it's not a shipping issue, it's a localization issue!

(Ow that hurt to type. Even being sarcastic, that still hurt to type.)

If nothing else,

proglution's final comment in that thread has convinced me that she has no idea what the hell "localization" actually means. Either that or she's deliberately misapplying the term to cover her ass. Neither speaks well for her in the case.

What a complete and total load of bulshit that was. (In previous comment section). I can't believe [info]proglution went on such circular rants (and this did seem the case from my perspective) that proved nothing in the end except that they fail in arguments. Oh, and by the way, I'm inclined to believe the one with actual credentials. (AKA, you.)

To be fair, it shouldn't be a battle of credentials. People with credentials can still say stupid, stupid shit about Japanese language and culture - witness

suzukaze and my favorite overhyped academic John Whittier Treat - but one of the points that I was trying to make in that post was that, really, it's important to recognize the limitations of your own knowledge, regardless of your credentials. And it's asinine for somebody who admits to not being fluent in Japanese to slam a professional translator for doing a "half-assed job," being inaccurate, being misleading, having a shipping bias, etc.

I don't think that this is a complicated point, but it managed to completely sail over both of their heads.

Edited 2010-04-25 19:14 (UTC)

wow. you can write a book with those comments!
but I most shocked at this:

"Right – because there are always going to be select individuals and/or groups that don’t conform to their given social climates."

(...and that my friend is what we call racial profiling.)
well, that's what I got out of it. I'm hoping that they didn't mean it like that.

I actually think she was trying to argue the opposite of profiling with that statement. But it was one concession within her bigger point about cultural norms, which was full of fail and stereotyping.

The issue about cultural norms vs. individual behavior definitely got muddled in those comments. But the point is: It's important to recognize and understand cultural differences, but it is equally as important to recognize that there is always individual diversity within cultures. If we don't, then that's what we call essentializing. When we make unfounded assumptions about an individual's motivations and behavior based on something that we think we know about their culture, that's stereotyping.

Especially in terms of a topic as broad as "Japanese attitudes toward discussing relationships," we have to recognize that although there are broad cultural trends toward standoffishness, there is also a LOT of individual variation in terms of what types of attitudes Japanese people have regarding talking about sexuality. If there weren't, then Japan wouldn't have trashy tabloid magazines or sexy gossip blogs. If there weren't, then I wouldn't have had the experiences that I had in Japan. Japanese people are still individuals with diverse personal attitudes toward discussing sexuality, even though some broad trends are still recognizable.

So! The point is, it's incredibly offensive to make authoritative, blanket statements like "Japan doesn't talk about sex" without also recognizing the possibility of individual variation (it's important to disclaim yourself!). It's even more offensive to assert authoritatively that "Morita said/did ABC because he is Japanese and therefore has XYZ attitude toward relationships/politeness/Bleach shipping/whatever." That, again, is stereotyping. Yet that is exactly the way that

proglution phrased her statements about Japanese culture in her first two comments on

bleachness.

I think it's even more egregious in this case because Morita so clearly said "it's Orihime" and the shippers are actually trying to argue "BUT HE DIDN'T REALLY MEAN IT BECAUSE OF HIS CULTURE!!" It's like, now they're actually taking cultural stereotypes and claiming that they're more true than actually letting Morita speak for himself. It is so fucking offensive to deny the possibility that somebody could actually mean what they said because certain stereotypes about their culture would have you believe otherwise.

Understanding cultural differences is important, but making assumptions about individuals behavior is not the way to apply that knowledge. Anthropology 101. It's important to let Japanese people like Morita speak for themselves. Trying to apply "cultural knowledge" to deny what he said is so, so many layers of bullshit.

That was the issue at stake.

Caveat: Like I've stated so many times before, I think it's okay to speculate about the reasons why Morita said what he said, as long as you make it clear that it's speculation. Straight-up asserting authoritative truth about Morita's motivations is totally different, and totally not cool.

ETA: I want to thank you for making this comment (and apologize for the tl:dr response!). Because that is exactly the type of issue that I was trying to discuss in my first post, but it got derailed by the back-and-forth over the translation idiocy.

Edited 2010-04-25 20:51 (UTC)

no totally okay.
In fact I wanted to hear your reaction about that because some of the main points were about stereotyping.
(you should add this into your edit)

No, I should be thanking you. I'm glad that you brought up the stereotyping discussion again, because I'm equally as guilty of brushing it aside in the previous post and allowing the derail to happen. I was too busy focusing on the linguistic chicanery and I lost sight of the bigger issues involved.

'the difference between showing cultural knowledge vs. expressing stereotypes.'

ahaha, I get so paranoid about this (and the fine line). When trying to explain some kind of linguistic feature my Japanese teacher will often say 'well in Japan we speak/do/feel like this....' But regardless there is a difference between *her* saying it, and me saying it. idk if it would be considered xenophobic or not, but I would feel the same way about England as well.

It is indeed a very, very fine line. I think a lot of it has to do with the way that you phrase things. A lot of it also has to do with the difference between discussing cultures (which usually are described in terms of broad, simplified generalizations) versus how you discuss, describe, behave toward, and think about individuals.

Like, for example, I can say in general, ramen noodles are a popular and much-beloved food in Japan. But if I approach any individual Japanese person and say, "Oh hey you're Japanese, I bet you like ramen noodles!" Now I'm being racist. I also shouldn't talk about any individual Japanese person in similar terms. Like, I shouldn't say "Morita Masakazu must love ramen noodles because he's Japanese!" Because the very act of making those types of assumptions about a person based on a general characteristic of their culture denies individual experience and individual diversity within a culture.

Granted, issues like "cultural attitudes toward relationships" are much more complicated to discuss than my ramen noodles example. But that's kind of the gist of it.

Sadly the media and advertisement also plays a big part in how we see different cultures.

Absolutely. This is exactly why it's so important to talk about stereotypical and/or racist depictions in movies, books, TV, music, and advertising. (The same is true for sexism, homophobia, albism, transphobia, etc. Media hugely impacts the way that we think about others, particularly groups and cultures that we might not have any contact with other than what we see depicted on TV.)

Say that they had a advertisement for ramen noodles (using your example)
they would be more inclined to have a Japanese person in the commercial then say a white person.
That is also how they sell products.
like in beer commercials they have a lot of white men, but because of this we assume that every white man drinks beer.

I've never even seen an episode of Bleach in my life, but Jesus, this makes me kinda mad too. Has this proglution person ever even done any real translation work? Morita clearly said "Ichigo toshite wa yappari Orihime" as a statement, not a hesitation as she incorrectly wrote in her romanization/translation.

On a somewhat related note, since I haven't watched Bleach before, every time I hear Morita's voice, I hear Tidus from FFX instead, haha.

I dunno if she's ever done any other translation work, but she said herself that she isn't fluent, and, well, she made a shit translation - so I tried to keep the previous post focused solely on that, and that's what I called her out on.

On a somewhat related note, since I haven't watched Bleach before, every time I hear Morita's voice, I hear Tidus from FFX instead, haha.

lol yeah, I think Morita is a lot like Miyano Mamoru in that sense - he doesn't really vary his voice across characters, but he can still pull off doing different characters because of his sheer acting ability.

I always follow your entry´s.

There is something with these days.

First Zac with his stupid article about a part in the Otome Road, then you have this translation wank, and yesterday an anonym makes out a flametopic centered on himself.

WHY DON´T PEOPLE JUST GET IT?! D8 I know the world isn´t perfect but still...

And I can´t wait for next Soul Eater chapter and recap! :D

Thank you. ^_^

Fortunately I still think that the ratio of stupid people to clueful people in fandom is generally weighted more heavily toward the clueful people side... It's just that a handful of stupid people can be very, very loud and exhaustively wanky in defending their stupidity.

As we've seen demonstrated this week.

But I take back about the anonym one. Because maybe he wasn 't really trying to center it on himself, but wanted to take himself for an example of what an actually anonym would say about 'removing anons'. Of course we could expect such a reply to this from an anon! so we can't actually blame the wanking to him. I also said this to repelsteeltju himself and apologized for this. And also a bit for the post with the lots of caps lock in it(but I meant further content, the problem was that I also was subjective myself (epic fail)) Eventually I asked him what he finally thinks about removing anonym posts, BECAUSE THAT WAS THE ACTUAL SUBJECT.(I'm saying this more to myself)

Sorry I go on long about this.

Because maybe he wasn 't really trying to center it on himself,

Yes he was. He still is. Did you read his most recent comment to me? He said that my "entire argument" was all about him when no, really, it wasn't, and I attempted to explain that to him multiple times.

Yes, we can blame the wanking on him, because he was the one who was wanking. He was the one who went to ridiculous lengths to defend his right to be anonymous, then he kept arguing in an attempt to "prove" that the issue was all about him when it wasn't, then when he buckled and got a livejournal account anyway he proceeded to use it only to keep the argument going and to try to prove how the three of us were "wrong" about him. By acting like a dickwad.

So yes, really, he was centering it all around himself.

(UTC)
*looked it over* I... see it. Yes certainly *punches herself* But still you can expect a reply from an anon to a purposal called:'removing anons'

Furthermore, I found it not nice of him that he wanted to start conversations in Dutch. because I had the feeling others(and especially you) wanted to know what was going on too in that stupid foreign Dutch languiged wanking(and we were talking about you in there, he called you 'Nientje')

(Ofcourse I confronted him about being Dutch but nagged me about it,, while I said earlier to think about the reasons why I put it between parentheses in the early posts)

But let's just stop this(I bet you are thinking too long ago). I already betrayed myself by reacting again on that wank because of my hestitation. urg

You seem to have a bad case of unwarranted self importance.

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Jaw meets floor.

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Reposted for typing faaaail

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!!

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Wow

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