nenena | Taking a break from homework and lesson planning for fannish squee.

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Taking a break from homework and lesson planning for fannish squee.

poilass liked my

help_japan fic!! (*happy dances forever*)

I'm too busy with homework, work-work, and other RL stuff to finish recapping Soul Eater Not! chapter 6 this month, so I'll probably just post chapters 6 and 7 together next month.

And speaking of summer fandom projects.... (*looks at doujinshi scanning queue*) Siiiiigh. I'll get back on the scanning horse next week, after I finish my last week of classes and visiting relatives and stuff.

And sorry, Spike Pilgrim, but this is my new all-time favorite My Little Pony trailer mashup:

ETA: Also, this excellent rant about "womens' comics" by Melinda Beasi is worth a signal-boost. Pretty much the entire thing is highly quotable, but here's a quick sample:

Who hasn’t been put in the position of having to over-explain to a skeptical friend, “I know the cover is pink, but it’s really good, I swear!” We explain because we think we have to, and we think we have to because we’ve been conditioned to believe that something specifically created with girls or women in mind is less well-crafted, less intelligent, and less universally relevant than something that’s not.

Yep, pretty much this. Also highly relevant re: anybody freaking out over the popularity of My Little Pony. Super-duper highly relevant re: the mouthbreathing male otaku contingent's continual insistence that Madoka Magica is groundbreaking/original/revolutionary for doing the exact same things that magical girl shows for girls have been doing for the past twenty years, but not that they would know that because heaven forbid any of them ever actually watch that sparkly pink girly stuff.

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the exact same things that magical girl shows for girls have been doing for the past twenty years, but not that they would know that because heaven forbid any of them ever actually watch that sparkly pink girly stuff.

I'm curious: which shows are you referring to? Because my impression was that a lot of male otaku do watch the girly Magical Girl shows (like Sailor Moon and CCS), hence why producers eventually started making MG shows that actively cater to the male otaku audience (like Nanoha, Precure, Moetan, Uta Kata, Puni Puni Poemi, plus all those Magical Harem shows).

I'm curious: which shows are you referring to?

Off the top of my head? Sailor Moon, Pretty Cure, CCS, Mermaid Melody - to name some of the obvious picks (that have all at some point done the same plots that Madoka regurgitated - magical girls are conflicted and being a magical girl can suck, magic corrupts and magical girls go insane, magical girls have to fight/kill members of their own team, time travel to prevent grimdark future, untrustworthy mascot character, etc.).

Because my impression was that a lot of male otaku do watch the girly Magical Girl shows (like Sailor Moon and CCS),

They do.

hence why producers eventually started making MG shows that actively cater to the male otaku audience (like Nanoha, Precure, Moetan, Uta Kata, Puni Puni Poemi, plus all those Magical Harem shows).

Exactly.

Which is why we now have a generation of male otaku who teethed on the magical-girls-for-guys shows, which coincidentally tends to be the same group of male otaku for whom Madoka Magica is suddenly the most revolutionary thing ever.

I've found in general that the male fans who are the most vocal about Madoka being "revolutionary" will often admit to having never seen an episode of Sailor Moon or Pretty Cure before. Remember that the former is old-school and the latter of for girls, hence why a lot of the annoying Madoka fans - who coincidentally tend to be younger and a bit newer to anime, the same as the "annoying" fan contingent in any fandom - haven't seen them.

I'm not talking about the fandom as a whole here, just the small but vocal contingent who are incredibly persistent in bleating the idea that Madoka is actually doing stuff that has totally never been done before.

Okay, it makes sense that it's the newbie fans who are going "omg this is completely new and revolutionary!" (Although pretty much any time a fan says that about anything, they're usually wrong. Ain't no new ideas left in the world, kids.) Though even the allergic-to-girly-things otaku don't really have an excuse: the last MG show I can recall that did the whole grim-deconstructy thing was Uta Kata in 2004, and it was aimed at the male demographic like it wanted to have their babies or something.

I'm again curious, since I haven't watched CCS or Mermaid Melody: Which is the one that had magical girls killing each other and/or an untrustworthy mascot character? I do remember some magical girls killing each other in Sailor Moon, but I don't think that counts because they perpetually resurrect, which makes the deaths feel pretty cheap.

And does Pretty Cure really count as a "for girls" show? I mean what with the hand-to-hand combat style, the relative lack of het romance, and the relatively large amount of lesbian subtext, I figured it was trying to pitch itself at both male and female demographics.

Death with a following resurrection is probably a standard feature of magical girl shows. At least it used to be.

To be fair to Sailor Moon, before the whole resurrection aspect ever kicked in, it aired episode 45. That was an episode that consisted entirely of four characters being killed off one-by-one while protecting Usagi, and ended with them still dead. I'd heard stories, though I don't know that it is true, that after it aired, some parents were calling the station because their children were crying.

When the series aired in the US, episodes 45 and 46 were edited into a single episode. In addition to editing the deaths, this meant that the big resurrection happened in the same episode as the deaths.

Alien 9 isn't actually magic, and may be considered a more modern and possibly magical girls for guys, but it is pretty grimdark itself. At least the half of the story that actually got animated gets dark...

I do remember some magical girls killing each other in Sailor Moon, but I don't think that counts because they perpetually resurrect, which makes the deaths feel pretty cheap.

But didnt Madoka Magica do the same thing?

Mami had her grimdark death in episode 3 and we watched her die multiple times in episode 10 through different timelines, and in the last episode shes brought back to life again. I personally felt kind of cheated with her character in the sense that none of her deaths apparently mattered, and since Madoka started everything over, me no longer know her character at all since her past is essentially re-written. Same with Kyoko, since her death was supposed to be significant in one episode and shes back in the final.

I personally felt the deaths in madoka felt a lot more cheap in comparison to the deaths of characters like Nephrite or Princess Kakyuu in Sailor Moon (and neither of those characters come back)

Mermaid Melody had magical girls fighting each other, but not killing (although the bad magical girl who was about to be redeemed ended up killing herself at the last minute anyway) and one helluva untrustworthy mascot character in Fuku-chan.

Oh hell fuck yes PC is a girl show. It's not advertised in ANY male-oriented media in Japan. Trust me,I actually went *looking* for that at one point, but no. It's considered so girly in Japan that it might as well have cooties.

ETA: Also yeah WTF the big deaths in Madoka were undone, too. Mami's death was supposed to be the big shocker but she was back by the end. Meanwhile, dead magical girls and princesses in Rayearth and MM stayed dead. Some characters in the SM manga, too.

Edited 2011-06-30 21:53 (UTC)

Is that the anime or the manga of Mermaid Melody? Because I've heard they're rather different and I'd like to check out whichever one has the darker elements.

Well now I'm even more confused about Precure, because I was looking at Youtube stats on Cure-related vids, and the top two demographics that liked those vids were invariably Female 13-17 and Male 30s-40s. So even if it's being marketed at girls, there are still lots of adult guys watching it. idk.

Regarding the deaths in PMMM, personally I draw a distinction between a character dying and then getting un-dead-ed, versus a character dying permanently in one timeline but surviving in another timeline. It's like what Umineko or Higurashi does — one of the Mamis may have survived and gotten a happy ending, but that doesn't help the other five or so Mamis who still got crappy endings. And then those five unhappy Mamis will fuse together into one nihlistic super-villain who will go hijack another canon and insert her own Mary-Sue character into it and then she'll end up dating the evil conglomeration of all the unhappy Sayakas and /end Umineko joke

So even if it's being marketed at girls, there are still lots of adult guys watching it. idk.

That wouldn't surprise me, but it's the same phenomenon as MLP - the primary audience is little girls, even though it's popular with other demographics despite the lack of targeted advertising toward older dudes.

Also, I assume that you're viewing Pretty Cure videos on le English youtube? The viewer demographics are somewhat different for Pretty Cure videos uploaded by Japanese users. The demographic that really counts, however, is who's watching the cartoons when they air on Japanese TV on Saturday mornings. Which just happens to be the demographic least likely to be watching the same episodes on Youtube. Which is why you need to be careful about making arguments based on Youtube viewership! ;)

Regarding the deaths in PMMM, personally I draw a distinction between a character dying and then getting un-dead-ed, versus a character dying permanently in one timeline but surviving in another timeline.

But Homura wasn't "splitting" timelines in PMMM. She was actually rewinding time. So Mami very much did get un-deaded. That's the same way that Sailor Moon saved all of the Sailor Senshi at the end of the first season.

Or, if you don't buy the rewinding argument, then all of the Sailor Senshi at the end of the first season of Sailor Moon died and stayed dead in their own timeline, too.

WTF, livejournal. That was me who left the previous comment. I could've sworn I was logged in.

Also, re: Mermaid Melody... I dunno what you've heard, but, uh, Sara's death is the same in both the anime and the manga. So the answer to your question is... both?

Hear, hear! *clinks mug*

That video is made of win, but having a bunch of gamer guy friends who happened to be Starcraft fans and showed me the orginal trailer, my remaining favorite mash-up would still have to be Ponycraft 2.

Take your time with the SE!NOT recaps and doujin scanning (Though I am very much looking forward to both), by all means, too.

The article also got me thinking about when I first got into MLP. I recommended it to my closest friends after sitting through pretty much half of season 1, but all they gave me were weird looks. Mom too. When I recommended it to my geeky Otaku/Star Trekkie band teacher (seriously, next years marching show is to Star Trek music) and a couple of my less-than popular gamer pals who regularly check out The Escapist, however, they took to it right away. There is abosolutely no reason why something being pinkish and girly means it's not going to be a good show. I don't judge a show by how it looks at the start; I judge it by it's amount of character development, it's messages, and the overall atmosphere to it. This is why My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic succeeded where Madoka Magica failed miserably. My Little Pony was a show that, while G1 was good (BUSHWOOLIES IN SEASON 2 PLEEEEASE), had the following generations sucking pretty badly. This generation series has a good team behind it and had an incredible director. Madoka Magica is basically a mash-up of everything that's been done before and labeled with TRAGIC to attract male otakus as basic over-glorified anime that most certainly does not deserve it's hype. It's weirdly reversed now, MLP being a series that had not-so-good shows before and now it's awesome, and magical girl animes such as Sailor Moon, Mermaid Melody, Card Captor Sakura, ect. being older and better, and is now being compared and put down by people who think Madoka Magica did everything else first. The internet is a very fickle thing.

Also, couple of quick questions: Have you ever been to Anime Expo? Is it worth the time and money? If so, what is there available for buying? I ask these cause when Dad and I were discussing commercialism and when I brought up an interesting fact of products sold in conventions such as Expo and the success of Vocaloids (Not to mention the recent Toyota Corolla promoted with Hatsune Miku and her live concert in L.A) he immediately asked me if I wanted to go this year, even offered to drive me and back me finacially. Do dad's just have some kind of tuning with someone's inner otaku? O.o

Long comment is long. I apologize.

Edited 2011-06-30 02:09 (UTC)

There's no need to apologize for long comment. :)

But I have never been to Anime Expo, so no, I can't tell you whether it's worth the time or the money. I think the answer to that question would depend on what exactly you want to get out of the convention experience, too.

Well, being the hick girl I am who got into fandom when she was ten but never indulged in it because she was too busying playing paintball in the boonies, I've never been to an actual con. The only thing close to a convention I've ever been to are folk festivals with original paintings, dandelion beer and jalapino jelly. So I'm just a country otaku wondering what a city con would be like, don't mind me. XD

Well, I would definitely suggest visiting the Anime Expo website to look at what sort of programming they're offering, and maybe lurk on the forums to see what people's experiences have been like.

Will be doing that, thank you!

Also highly relevant re: anybody freaking out over the popularity of My Little Pony. Super-duper highly relevant re: the mouthbreathing male otaku contingent's continual insistence that Madoka Magica is groundbreaking/original/revolutionary for doing the exact same things that magical girl shows for girls have been doing for the past twenty years, but not that they would know that because heaven forbid any of them ever actually watch that sparkly pink girly stuff.

Amen.

Madoka just crammed all the generic magical girl tragicness into 12 episodes. Funny thing is how when I ask people WHY they think its so revolutionary and whatever, most of them either say "its grimdark" or "episode 3". I dont even.

Madoka Episode 3 was done years ago. It was called Nadesico ep 3.

Yeah, like Madoka was the first magical girl show to have shock character deaths or whatever. Uh, hello? PGSM? Mermaid Melody?

I think what bugs me the most about Madoka being upheld as the standard of grim dark magical girls is that in some ways the original Sailor Moon manga was much darker. Just compare the time travel plots. Homura time looped to prevent her one friend from dying and to save her own city from destruction, whereas Sailor Cosmos time looped in order to prevent her past self from saving the entire universe (and bringing her dead friends back to life) because the future outcome of having Sailor Senshi merely continue to exist was so awful that she would rather have had the entire universe destroyed than allow the mass suffering that she saw in the future to occur. You tell me which plot line is more grim dark.

Edited 2011-06-30 15:34 (UTC)

Yeah, like Madoka was the first magical girl show to have shock character deaths or whatever. Uh, hello? PGSM? Mermaid Melody?

I thought it was an old thing back when Magic Knight Rayearth did it, and effectively so. However I remember watching Mermaid Melody when I was younger but I cant remember it very well, I dont even recall anyone dying, but its been a long time ago I cant remember. Refresh my memory?

I think what bugs me the most about Madoka being upheld as the standard of grim dark magical girls is that in some ways the original Sailor Moon manga was much darker. Just compare the time travel plots. Homura time looped to prevent her one friend from dying and to save her own city from destruction, whereas Sailor Cosmos time looped in order to prevent her past self from saving the entire universe (and bringing her dead friends back to life) because the future outcome of having Sailor Senshi merely continue to exist was so awful that she would rather have had the entire universe destroyed than allow the mass suffering that she saw in the future to occur. You tell me which plot line is more grim dark.

AMEN

Sara died in MM, and it was very much a "shock" death since it came as a HOLY SHIT surprise. She never came back, either.

Ooooh yeah, definitely gotta re-watch the series.

I'm hearing really conflicting accounts. Should I watch Madoka Magica, or is it a waste of time and brainpower? On the one hand, I'm hearing that it's OMG AWFUL SO CLICHE and on the other, people are telling me I havetohavetohaveto watch it because it's so good and tragic, etc. etc.

I'm a little torn.

Also, I actually met someone who was hating on MLP for no reason, and it... was really stupid. I casually mentioned it and they basically looked at me like I was an idiot and commented very dryly that no, no, they weren't interested in it. It's obviously stupid.

Great reason, person! Just assume it's dumb because it's MLP. 8|b

Don't be torn. Just watch it and judge for yourself.

It's great if you like tragic magical girls. It's terrible if you want good animation or something less predictable and fan-pandery. The question of whether it's original or not is irrelevant to whether you're going to enjoy it or not; this is just me being pissed off at an annoying segment of the fandom for giving the show praise for something that it doesn't deserve.

*thread hijack* As someone who likes PMMM a lot but who does not think it's the Second Coming, allow me to offer a list of things that are in the show that might help you figure out if you'll like it:

-absolutely gorgeous art-porn set pieces and Monsters-of-the-Week
-crappy animation
-awesome fight scenes with conventional weaponry (guns, swords, explosives) instead of the usual magic attacks
-a plot that is essentially a Cosmic Horror Story
-a plot that takes an Evangelion-esque delight in finding new and exciting ways to psychologically torture its characters
-a Magical Girl system that is specifically designed to make everyone involved as miserable as possible
-a mascot character who is simultaneously adorable and fucking terrifying
-a Faustian allegory
-a protagonist who only decides to become a Magical Girl in the final episode
-lesbian subtext!
-ANGST ANGST ANGST
-a Higurashi-style Groundhog Day loop for maximum death and suffering
-moe
-no really, if you don't like moe art styles, you may have trouble watching this
-character designs with freakishly wide faces (the character designer is Aoki Ume of Hidamari Sketch
-very brief and infrequently occurring transformation sequences
-gorgeous and haunting soundtrack

As for what makes PMMM unusual (if not unique): while plenty of older MG shows have done depressing tropes like power corrupts/girls go insane/girls fight and kill each other/untrustworthy mascot/being a MG sucks/etc, PMMM does all of them at once, and in the span of only twelve episodes, creating the aforementioned "everyone is a cosmic plaything and angsts/dies a lot" situation. Also unusual are the care put into the designs of the set pieces and especially the Monsters-of-the-Week.

Wasn't the real reason Madoka became so popular because pretty much all the other anime that debuted in that season was pretty bad?

I remember that for a while both it and Hokago no Pleiades where consider by otaku the best current anime, and Pleiades is pretty a standard Maho Shoujo show

Also as pointed out otaku aren't known for not watching "sparkly pink girly stuff" and I know that Pretty Cure And Sakura have a huuuuge otaku fanbase, so why compare them with people that refuse to watch MLP because is for girls?

Jesus tapdancing skateboarding Christ I make a post about five different topics and so far every single response has been wanking about Madoka. Siiiiigh.

Wasn't the real reason Madoka became so popular because pretty much all the other anime that debuted in that season was pretty bad?

I definitely can't disagree that pretty much all of the other anime airing last winter was pretty bad. :) But that alone doesn't account for the explosive popularity of Madoka. It was a combination of factors: Shaft building up excitement beforehand, all of the narrative kinks carefully calculated to appeal to various audiences (the moe character designs, the SHOCK moments, the yuri overtones, etc.), and - like I said in the comments above - the fact that for the first time there was a large portion of Madoka's male audience who hadn't ever seen a grimdark magical girl show before, because they had only been exposed to "magical girls for guys" shows (which tend to be much more with the sparkly pink and a lot less with the conflict and death), so to that section of the audience Madoka was suddenly the most revolutionary thing ever. At least, that was the impression that I got from lurking on 2ch while the show was airing. And definitely the impression that I'm getting now from the trolls who are (still!) attacking one my friends (and have been doing so for two months straight!) just because she posted a comment on devart about how Sailor Moon did it first.

Also as pointed out otaku aren't known for not watching "sparkly pink girly stuff" and I know that Pretty Cure And Sakura have a huuuuge otaku fanbase, so why compare them with people that refuse to watch MLP because is for girls?

I am comparing the specific group of people who praise Madoka for being original while refusing to watch Sailor Moon or Pretty Cure to the people who refuse to watch MLP for the same reason - because those things are for girls.

Sorry, but after having dealt with the Madoka trolls for months now, I still find it very damning that the most vocal Madoka evangelists are a) men and b) admit to having never watched older magical girl shows for girls and c) refuse to do so because those shows for girls couldn't POSSIBLY be as intelligent, well-written, or universally relevant as Madoka, right?! Which is exactly the phenomenon that Melinda Beasi described in her post.

Like I've clarified in the comments multiple times, this isn't about Madoka fandom in general, just a particularly obnoxious - and, fuck, let's face it, blatantly sexist - segment of the fanbase being asses about it.

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Taking a break from homework and lesson planning for fannish squee.

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