Oh ho, WOW.

[nenena]

Instead of studying for the PLT tonight, I instead stayed up reading this wank, as I was completely absorbed by the utterly amazing linguistic bullshitting going on in this thread. It's... It's utterly fascinating, that's what it is.

And it hits all of my personal squicks about how non-Japanese fans sometimes interact with Japanese fandom. I'm just freakin' amazed at the amount of bullshit that proglution constructs her "argument" with, and how she positions herself as some sort of expert on Japanese language and culture (sooooo much more knowledgeable than the original translator, amirite?) while twisting, fabricating, or outright lying ("'Yappari' does not mean 'Of course', nor is it any kind of assertion or agreement, in this context" - OMG SERIOUSLY?!) about the translation issues involved.

I can't help but be reminded of Pretendians, particularly in the way that they can take a little bit of cultural knowledge and suddenly position themselves as "experts" on all things Native American, twisting NDN beliefs to fit with their own New Age-y beliefs and agendas, then re-packaging said BS to peddle to fellow New Agers. Actually, I see a lot of the same in English-speaking Japanese fandoms, too: Fans with only a tiny amount of Japanese knowledge will position themselves as "experts" on the language and culture, and then twist their little bit of genuine knowledge into overblown expertise to support their own personal agendas, whether it be shipping, or justifying manga piracy, or armchair quarterbacking about the manga industry, or whatever. My personal favorite is when they make blanket statements like "OMG fan translations are so much more accurate than the official version!" because they have an anti-industry stance or whatever, even though they may not actually be qualified to comment on the quality of a translation at all beyond an obvious point like "Damn, I wish they had kept the honorifics here" or "WTF is up with this flipped artwork, yo?" Now, to be fair, pointing out a lack of honorifics or the practice of flipping artwork are both fair criticisms of any professionally translated work, regardless of one's Japanese linguistic ability. But a blanket "this sucks, the fan translations were better!" statement is NOT fair unless you really, really know what you're talking about. I'm amazed at how often I see and hear people who admit that they can't speak Japanese praising fan translations for being more accurate/authentic/whatever than the professional translations. WTF. If you can't actually speak the language, how the hell do you feel entitled to make blanket statements like that?!

And it's not just fan-versus-professional translation wank where I see the Pretendian (Wapanese?) dynamic come into play in Japanese fandoms, either: There's a lot of posturing and BS-ing about nearly every aspect of fandom that I can think of, whether it's posting long screeds on ffrants about What Japanese Schools Are Really Like (usually posted by someone who has never been to Japan), or making authoritative statements about the Japanese manga/anime/television/movie industry without having any actual facts to back oneself up. I see it all the time. Or, for another glorious example from Bleach fandom: Remember this one? (Read beneath where it says "Strawman #1".) I know, linking to old wanks is bad form, but still, that post is a perfect example of what I'm talking about, especially the part where she goes off on the Japanese ideal of femininity, as if there's only one popular concept of idealized femininity in Japanese culture.

And before anyone accuses me of throwing stones in a glass house: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. I've been guilty of bullshitting like this in the past, too. But I'm older and wiser now, and trying harder to suck less, yes? And again, I think it's totally fair game for any fan, regardless of Japanese ability, to discuss issues of translation and Japanese culture in fandom - you just have to be careful how you frame those discussions, and be aware that a lot of us (myself included) sometimes feel entitled to say a lot more about translation and/or cultural issues than we really have the knowledge to back up.

But I actually do happen to be fluent in Japanese, which actually does qualify me to make the following statement: proglution is full of shit. Seriously, totally full of shit.

BTW, for the record, I ship Ichigo/Rukia. ;) And I don't understand why it even matters which ship Ichigo's voice actor prefers. He said that he likes Ichigo/Orihime, so what? Why does anybody even need to parse his statement for hidden meanings and mysterious, mystical Japanese doublespeak? It's not only bullshit, it's completely unnecessary bullshit. (*eyeroll*) I mean, really.

Edited to add: Oi vey, that Pretendian comparison might not have been a very good idea, as I somewhat belatedly realize in this comment. So, er. I apologize for showing my ass in a post where I was calling out other people for showing their asses. What I was trying to get at is that I think that there are a lot of similar beliefs and attitudes that lead to both Pretendianism in real life and Wapanese posturing in fandom. But the end results are somewhat radically different in terms of their impact on the target cultures, and I definitely failed to consider that when I wrote this post.

Edited again: Post-mortem.

Comments

[the-sun-is-up.livejournal.com]

and then go on to make blanket statements "OMG fan translations are so much more accurate than the official version!"

Haha I know fuck-all about Japanese, but I can attest that there are many fan translations out there that are utter shit. At least the official translations use correct grammar/spelling, regardless of their translatory accuracy.

And yes, I think the correct term for these people would be "Wapanese."

ALSO I LOVE THAT THIS FAIL IS FROM AN ICHIRUKI V ICHIHIME SHIPWAR. IT'S SO WONDERFULLY PREDICTABLE. AND STUPID.

NEVER CHANGE, BLEACH FANDOM. NEVER CHANGE.

[nenena.livejournal.com]

I'm starting to feel sad that this fail is from an Ichiruki vs. Ichihime shipwar, because in my post I tried to use the translation wank about Morita's comment as a jumping-off point for a broader discussion about Wapanese posturing in Japanese media fandoms... But now it looks like the comments are going to stay focused on Moritagate. Argh. I hope that turns out not to be the case.

[qwirky.livejournal.com]

proglution is a very good friend of mine, so that will be my disclaimer. She has never claimed to be fluent in Japanese, but she did get someone who is fluent in Japanese to check over her translation and to watch the video. I can't say anything further about the translation since I am not fluent in Japanese.

The reason people care is that Morita's statement at this convention was inconsistent with his previous statements (for many years), in which he has, as far as he has been able to, expressed great excitement, fondness, and enthusiasm for Ichigo/Rukia, when, to my knowledge, he hasn't made the same kind of statements about Ichigo/Orihime. He's a favorite of fans, so this kind of 180 is shocking. Looking at the context of his statement is an attempt to understand the inconsistencies between this statement and his previous ones.

There were several people fluent in Japanese who also thought that Morita was trying to be polite or felt pressured into following the lead of the American VA (who said he liked Orihime) and the audience (who were happy with that response). A number of Japanese Ichigo/Rukia fans on 2ch also felt similarly - that he wasn't being honest when he said he preferred Orihime, and that being in that environment may have prompted his response. Some also felt that Morita saying Rukia was another him or a part of his soul was romantic, hence perhaps why some have said he was trying to appease both sides or backtrack a bit on his earlier assertion. I don't think saying that there could be cultural reasons as to why Morita would say what he did is wrong, unless those cultural reasons are false or don't exist.

Of course, only Morita knows his reasons for saying what he did, and he could very well have been honest here. Only time will tell based on his future actions; even then, only he knows what he really believes. But I don't think it's fair to say that one should ignore context or cultural reasons as an explanation for inconsistent positions. Is there something about the situation that makes you think that we should take his words at face value, and that's that? If your main issue is with the translation, again, I can't comment on that, though I am interested in knowing what your issues with the translation are and how you'd translate it.

[nenena.livejournal.com]

My issue is about the translation wank.

proglution said:

First and foremost, that panel translator was dead wrong by saying, “For Ichigo, it’s Orihime.” That is absolutely 100% not what he says.

Except that it actually IS 100% exactly what he says.

If people want to argue that Morita felt pressured to say what he said because of what the American VA said, or that he was trying to be polite to the American audience, or that what he said isn't really what he believes - then fine. But none of that changes what he actually said.

[the-sun-is-up.livejournal.com]

So let me see if I've got this straight:

A bunch of people are getting this upset and wanky because some random voice actor expressed a personal preference for a romantic relationship that doesn't exist, between two characters over which he has no control nor influence, in a series which is almost entirely devoid of romance and which is authored by a professional troll.

(Actually that sounds about right to me, seeing as this is shipping fandom we're talking about, but the sheer insanity of it all still makes me boggle.)

[the-sun-is-up.livejournal.com]

Also:

Why does anybody even need to parse his statement for hidden meanings and mysterious, mystical Japanese doublespeak?

Because shipwars are serious business! And because crazy shippers do that with all official interviews, regardless of what language they're in. And now I'm having flashbacks to Zutara fandom and nooooooooo bad memories! :(

[pheonee.livejournal.com]

I sometimes prefer the fanslation, but only if I've read both that and the official translation and they mean essentially the same thing but I just like the way the fans phrased it better. But claiming that fanslations are ABSOLUTELY MOAR ACCURATE than official translations (unless the distributor is 4kids) when you don't actually speak Japanese yourself...

And I firmly maintain than bitching about voice actor opinions is only okay if that opinion is hateful or offensive. :|

[nenena.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes, yes to both!

Phrasing, eloquence, and flow of a particular translation are definitely things that anybody can have preferences for, regardless of language ability. ;) That's definitely another thing that I think it's fair game for any fan to discuss. But that's still not the same thing as passing judgment on the overall accuracy of a translation. A translation can sound very smooth and natural, but still be wildly inaccurate.

And word about the voice actors' opinions.

[peachyindeed.livejournal.com]

It's 7:30 in the morning and I can hardly see straight BUT this is just too interesting to pass by.

I can kind of see where kids are coming from in regards to "the fan translations being better". Strange as it sounds, the internet is more 'trustworthy' than a publisher's work. (I KNOW, I LAUGHED TOO) I used to be a bit biased because I grew up with 4Kids, which slaughtered anime, and Viz, which flipped images and renamed characters. The publishers don't usually put in notes about why they translated something a certain why, and you can't question them on their LJ. Whereas fan translators are up for immediate questioning and criticism by their peers.

When we see the official translation, which I suppose they localize to make it more appealing to American readers, we immediately compare it with the scanlations we've read online. Thus, any little difference gets immediate negative reviews.

On the other hand, we still can't read Japanese ourselves. All of the criticism we have is second hand. I didn't know 4kids or old!Viz changed names or plots until I read people's complaints online! It didn't matter to me! So while I can see where the fanbrats are coming from, I still want to pinch them.

[nenena.livejournal.com]

Heck, I'm a child of the Dark Ages of Translation, too. My first fandom was Sailor Moon, so yes, I absolutely understand why a lot of people don't automatically trust industry translations. But yeah, things are very, very different now. Of course there are still good fan translations and bad official translations. But if you don't have the linguistic ability to really judge which are the good and bad translations, then I don't think it's fair for people to make blanket statements about which is overall better. I've seen plenty of fan translations that have a veneer of authenticity on the surface - they keep honorifics intact, they flow smoothly, then "sound" nice - but they're still actually extremely inaccurate compared to the official translations. Things like "keeping the honorifics" and "flowing well" are necessary, but not sufficient, to make a good translation.

[furikku.livejournal.com]

I used to be that weeaboo. Thankfully, I seem to have mostly grown out of it.

I can't really comment on the translation issue, since I almost never read scanlations. That being said, there's a lot of fan translations that seem to leave fully translatable phrases untranslated for no particular reason, which always seems weird to me. (There are several licensed translations that do the same; Tegami Bachi is particularly notable to me, since the attack names are Romanized and have a translation accompanying, which is just... odd. WHY would you write "kurobari" instead of "black needle"? WHY?)

It seems like (in those cases, at least) "authenticity" comes from seeming to know the language and assuming your audience does, as well. (At which point, there's no real need for translations to begin with, but hey.) Even when "knowing" just means "having a smattering of cartoon-related vocabulary." :/

(On the tangential issue, I cannot understand the emotional investment in shipping. Of course, I couldn't understand shipping at all until it was presented to me as equivalent to "What if Batman and Wolverine fought?" at which point I was like, "Ohhhh, so what happens in canon doesn't HAVE to matter!" and then went wholeheartedly into it. So yeah.)

[nenena.livejournal.com]

Even when "knowing" just means "having a smattering of cartoon-related vocabulary."

Yes, this. This exactly.

[devimelete.livejournal.com]

I will like to go off tangent for a little bit and say something about Pretendians. Now, my dad is an archeologist working in a university, and I do pick up some anthropology and archeology via osmosis from him. I clean artifacts for him when he's not feeling to pay three hundred for some worker to do them when he can have his kids do it for free. I do shovel tests for him. He gives me books on history for me to read when I was little. That sort of thing.

One of the biggest gripes I have about those people who claim of Indian spirituality in combine with the sprituality is the absolute and complete twisting of history. I mean, yes, the Indians worshipped various beings that is in wildlife and nature because hey, that's all they got. And the Indians got it extremely rough, to put it mildly, when the Europeans came across the New World.

However.

By using that inclination of nature worship and the horrible travesty that all Indians, from North to South America, have faced, they are extremely distorting the history of Native Americans. By that, they say, "Oh we are go great and kind and I feel guilty for being white because my ancestors have done horrible things in the past but I am also part Indian and meant to worship nature!" That's all there is to these people and it bothers me, and it also pisses off my dad because half the time it's the same kind of people who can't dig a hole with a shovel and gives him New Age bullshit while he's trying to do his work by excavating a burial from being destroyed by a new highway development.

Indians are people too - they are not just victims. They do horrible things to themselves and others as well. They are more than just nature worshipers. They have political networks. They are just as capable of racial and tribal bullshit as the next white guy.

I guess what I am saying is that by emphasizing one particular aspect of history and distorting, or worse ignoring, the rest of it of Indian history is a bit like what is happening here with this wankfest. It sounds like to me that there's some similar romanticizing of the culture, particularly the language while ignoring other aspects of culture that involves with language, or just the culture itself.

Just my two cents.

[nenena.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this comment. Especially this part:

I guess what I am saying is that by emphasizing one particular aspect of history and distorting, or worse ignoring, the rest of it of Indian history is a bit like what is happening here with this wankfest. It sounds like to me that there's some similar romanticizing of the culture, particularly the language while ignoring other aspects of culture that involves with language, or just the culture itself.

Yes, thank you. That's exactly what I was getting at.

Although, er... Now that I've slept on it, I'm starting to wonder if this might not be a bad comparison to be making, since what Pretendians do with NDN culture is a whole magnitude more horrible than what overenthusiastic weaboo fanbrats do with Japanese culture. I don't want to sound like I'm trivializing the history of NDN oppression in the Americas by comparing it to Bleach fans wanking about a non-existent translation issue. But, oh fuck, I think I am.

(*contemplates how to edit post*)

Apologies for the long reply

[taichou]

Hi - qwirky pointed me over here, since the post is in regards to my translation and, apparently, me personally. Hope you don’t mind if I address some of your “concerns”.
 
”I'm just freakin' amazed at the amount of bullshit that proglution constructs her "argument" with, and how she positions herself as some sort of expert on Japanese language and culture (sooooo much more knowledgeable than the original translator, amirite?)”
 
My post was not meant as an argument – it was not meant to cater to one side or another, and throughout the thread I repeatedly bring attention to the fact that neither side benefits from his answer, albeit I do think his statement in regards to Rukia was much stronger. I don’t identify myself as an “expert on Japanese language and culture” – on the contrary, I stated here that I’m not fluent, but I did verify my translation with someone who is fluent before actually posting. In addition, when it was pointed out to me, by other fluent speakers that Morita didn’t really trail-off, I recognized and addressed that issue here and here. Unfortunately, because of the replies, I could no longer edit the original comment, and the post was frozen (due to trolling) before I could add an addendum. So again, I never identified myself as any kind of authority on Japanese, but I suppose I appreciate the fact you think my writing voice is that confident.
 
Saying that, I do think you (and your post) are making some pretty big assumptions about my actual knowledge (or “level”). Since it seems to need clarification, I am currently studying the Japanese language and am familiar with the culture, again, due to study and personal interaction. Taking issue with my translation is fine and completely your prerogative, but the cultural notes? To be frank, I’m confused about where your issues with this lies, as everything I said regarding this post was actually backed up by the Japanese fans themselves. In addition, even if you don’t want to accept me, or my explanations, that is exactly why I asked suzukaze to verify everything I wrote – because she is fluent in the language and she lived in Japan, so has first hand knowledge of the culture and society.
 
As far as the translator is concerned, I conceded to possibly being unfair to her situation, but given she again mistranslates Morita, for his answer to the question that immediately follows, you’ll have to forgive me for not giving her the benefit of doubt.

Re: Apologies for the long reply

[taichou]

”Fans with only a tiny amount of Japanese knowledge will position themselves as "experts" on the language and culture, and then go on to make blanket statements”
 
And aren’t you making blanket assumptions about my apparent “tiny” amount of knowledge? The rest of your point about fan translations doesn’t really concern me, because this translator is in no way official – they’re also a fan, who showed themselves to make mistakes repeatedly through the video. So I’m not really sure where you’re getting the rest of your point from.
 
”But I actually do happen to be fluent in Japanese, which actually does qualify me to make the following statement: proglution is full of shit. Seriously, totally full of shit.”
 
And again, while I appreciate your candor, you realize that you’ve done nothing in your post to detail why I’m “full of shit”, right? Baseless assumptions about me and fandom at large don’t really constitute proving someone wrong - they just kinda make people wonder why you’re flinging such accusations around. I don’t think your post would have been so off-putting if it had actually detailed what was wrong about the translation, since you claim to be fluent. Instead, the whole thing really makes me wonder what you regard as “fluent” and why you feel the need to go on and on about how I’m full of shit without really demonstrating reasons for this. Were you expecting people to just take your word for it? Aren’t you thereby making yourself an “authority” without really indicating why you are one?
 
To be perfectly frank, I don’t really care that you think I’m some anime n00b with a hell-bent IchiRuki agenda (but really, that amused me greatly, considering I repeated to almost everyone in that thread and in other comments that no ship should worry about Morita’s comments), so much as I find your tirade rather hypocritical. Granted, it’s your journal and you are perfectly within your rights to post whatever you want, and I do appreciate the opportunity to discuss your “issues” with the translation. I just think it’s funny that you’re calling me out for… whatever you’re calling me out for, without really stating or proving why it was necessary.

Re: Apologies for the long reply

[taichou]

And just to clarify, my post wasn’t even about the ships, so much as asking people to cool it with the Morita!bashing, which I think my post makes perfectly clear (except for to, you know, you, I guess).

Again, apologies for the very long reply, but just as my post apparently garnered some strong feelings in you, so too did yours prompt my reply.

Seems this part got cutoff of my initial reply

[taichou]

”… while twisting, fabricating, or outright lying ("'Yappari' does not mean 'Of course', nor is it any kind of assertion or agreement, in this context" - OMG SERIOUSLY?!) about the translation issues involved.”
 
Yes, seriously. ‘Yappari’ does not mean ‘of course’, especially not in this context. You never actually identify what in my translation is “twisting, fabricating, or outright lying”, but based on the comments, I’m going to assume it’s this expression. So please, in this instance where you’re making the same blanket statements about me that you harangue me for doing to Japan, please tell me what your translation would be, because I would genuinely love to hear it. If you’re so confident that I’m 100% wrong, what exactly, should the correct translation be? Morita’s full statement:

Boku kojin toshite wa... Rangiku-san ga suki desu. Ichigo toushite … yappari Orihime. Rukia wa docchi ka tte iu to … Tomodachi dewanai dakeredo.. nan darou na―… mou hitori no jibun no mitai na kanji da to omotte imasu…

In your opinion, what should this be translated as? If I’m reading your response to qwirky correctly, you think the translator was correct in saying, “For Ichigo, it’s Orihime”, yes? But I’m sorry, even as a novice compared to your fluency, that’s not what he says, and that is why I so vehemently opposed that translator. Because she did phrase his answer very poorly. That sentence says Morita personally prefers Rangiku, but concerning Ichigo, he (Morita) says Orihime, as expected. ‘Yappari’ does not translate to ‘of course’ the way that everyone is making it out to be. If he had wanted to be clearer on it, he could/would have said, “Ichigo toushite … mochiron Orihime” or something of similar strength. Even if you don’t consider the cultural standpoint here, it doesn’t change what he literally says. This whole misinterpretation of ‘yappari’ is actually what riled fandom up to begin with and what prompted my initial post. As this article states, ‘yappari/yahari’ function mostly as conformity seekers, as is the case here, and they are “agreement” only in the context of trying to fit in and appease. That, combined with the fact that he automatically proceeds to negate that “agreement” with his statement about Rukia, just further demonstrate that everything I stated about his circumstances and culture were not “twist[ed] or fabrica[ted]”. And if that is not a valid source for you, here’s the magazine that published the same article in Japanese.

(I am, unfortunately, using my phone to copy/paste this, but I will reply to your other comments as soon as I'm at a computer again. Was wondering why I hadn't heard a reply from you on this part, LOL)

A bit of a longer reply~

[suzukaze.livejournal.com]

Hey, there - I hope it's okay for me to jump right in here, seeing as this is a public post, my name was thrown around quite a bit and you seem to practically love this kind of discussion. As proglution already mentioned somewhere above, I was the one who verified and checked her translations for accuracy because she asked me to, as I happen to be fluent in Japanese myself and actually lived there before as well. So yes, I also know what I'm talking about.

But one thing at a time, right? Let me follow your example and make a disclaimer first: I'm not an IchiRuki shipper. I'm not an IchiHime shipper. I haven't been invested in Bleach since the end of the SS arc and I'm not even currently up-to-date with the manga. I'm also not following the anime, nor do I care about any Bleach VAs. In short, I don't give a shit about who Morita ships, so your very first argument against me (or anybody) being "overly emotionally invested in what some voice actor said" falls flat. proglution already tried to explain to you, too, that it was not about the shipping for her either, but since you don't seem to listen to a word she says because “OMG, SHE'S NOT FLUENT AND HAS NO IDEA ABOUT ANYTHING”, I thought I'd mention it again anyway.

Next, if you're curious as to why I'm even responding to this in the first place, when I don't really give a flying fuck about this whole incident, it's rather simple: I hate hypocritical people, and I just like to call 'em as I see 'em. Since nobody else seems to be up for it, I decided to just point out, one by one, how very flawed your logic is, and why, exactly, your post just screams hypocrisy to me - or is “completely full of shit”, to use your own language. But no worries, unlike you, I will actually backup my claims instead of just stating the same denial over and over again. To be fair, that “yappari” really is one tricky word. I promise I’ll give it as much attention as necessary for you further down the line.

Also, I would like to apologize for the length of this reply in advance but again, unlike you, I want to make sure I don't leave anything out and address every point made (or rather, attempted). I'll start with what I found the most mind-blowing about your whole post - those wonderful assumptions you keep making without knowing proglution yourself, nor the 'friend' who helped her (which, again, would be me). Let's see:

That "tiny bit of knowledge" line that you quoted back at me, no, that wasn't about you. I never made any assumptions about you other than attacking what you actually said in that thread.
This is actually quite funny - you claim you never made any assumptions about her when your whole post is practically full of them. Maybe you are a little confused about the definition of an assumption (dictionary.com (http://dictionary.com) will help you though) but all proglution said was that she wasn't 100% fluent in Japanese, which is why you made the wrong and completely inappropriate assumption about her not "knowing shit" about anything. So what if she was 98% fluent - would she still fall under your definition of "fanbrat Japanese"? What about 97%? Also, if we're being exact, 100% fluent is what I would call a native, so mind me asking you if you are, in fact, a native?

Re: A bit of a longer reply~

[suzukaze.livejournal.com]

Also, another one of your assumptions that you seem to be making without even being aware of doing so (which is quite amazing, really) and which was definitely about proglution:

I'm just freakin' amazed at the amount of bullshit that proglution constructs her "argument" with, and how she positions herself as some sort of expert on Japanese language and culture (sooooo much more knowledgeable than the original translator, amirite?)
So, you state here that proglution is no "expert" and nowhere near as "knowledgeable" as the original translator, but do you know any of that for certain? Do you know about the original translator's full knowledge on the language, and do you know about proglution's background and past interaction with Japan and its society and culture? What, you dont? Well then, my dear, what you did there was make an assumption about something that you, in truth, really have no idea about. Quite to the contrary of what you said above with not making any assumption related to proglution, isn't it? Y halo there, hypocritical statement #1.

That was an awfully nice thing for you to say about a person who's fluent in Japanese, while you admit further down in the thread that you're not.
FYI, everyone makes mistakes. Someone being fluent = / = being omniscient and unable to make tiny mistakes. The translator was obviously in a stressful situation too, what with having to translate things as quickly and accurately as possibly, so I'm sorry, but everyone can make mistakes and even people who might only be 99.9% fluent are allowed to correct them in such situations. Maybe even people who are only 99.89% fluent.

I'm willing to challenge anybody on this, even [info]suzukaze.
This is where I start questioning your maturity. Furthermore, I guess it also explains why you keep shooting down every legitimate point and why you don't listen to a word anyone says, when it's all basically about ~winning~ for you. Too bad the only argument you have is that you're supposedly fluent and proglution isn't (as) “fluent”. This really doesn’t say much, considering my involvement and fluency.

Look, I've got my degree in Japanese and I've lived in Japan twice - one time for over three years - so those are my credentials if you need them.
Thanks, but nobody needed them. I get that you're eager to share your incredible knowledge of Japan and the language with the world, but I'm also sorry to say that the fact you lived in Japan for 3 years, frankly, doesn't say much. I've encountered plenty of foreigners who had lived in Japan for several years but their Japanese still sucked for various reasons. Your degree already says a little bit more for you, as far as your language proficiency goes, but that “I LIVED X YEARS IN JAPAN SO SUCK THAT” argument really doesn't faze me. Especially not when it comes to cultural understanding. Your ego, however, certainly does – I’ll give you that much.

Re: A bit of a longer reply~

[suzukaze.livejournal.com]

And also, if you want to weigh the scales on my mad translation skillz versus [info]suzukaze: I'm not the one overly emotionally invested in what some voice actor said, here.
Already addressed this above, but neither am I, and nobody planned on weighing any scales against anything. I don't know why you are so set on this being a competition or whatever, since nobody ever mentioned anything of that sort.

Now, coming to what you called the "mistranslations":

more like a part of himself (his soul)
That is an AWFULLY bullshitty stretch of a translation right there.
I don’t even know where to start with this. Maybe with the fact that your beloved original translator says herself that it’s "just like a part of himself". The "his soul" was added because it's the only way that sentence would make SENSE then. How else would you interpret that ANYWAY? Rukia sure as hell isn't a part of his body, so um. You know.

PS: That part was added in brackets for a reason, but I guess you must have overlooked that little detail in your rage - oh wait, you said you weren't the one who is emotionally invested in this, so. I guess we're back to doubting your actual reading abilities..?

But either way, as a matter of fact, both proglution and myself are aware of it literally translating to Rukia being more of something like a 2nd self, but even the original translator went with saying she is a part of him. I do not see how this translation is off in the least – maybe you are confusing this with some other translations other fans delivered, such as Rukia being Ichigo’s soulmate, but as far as proglution’s translation goes, she has never mentioned anything of this sort and neither did I.

Don't try to claim that I didn't give any reasons to back up my claims. This is one of the biggest, and it was there from the beginning.
Except for you actually didn't mention the above in your initial post, so.

"Yappari" is not ambivalent. It is the opposite of ambivalent.
Yeah, except for how the intent in its use is what makes it ambivalent - I'm sure that's why there are also people writing whole papers and a whole thesis (http://etd.ohiolink.edu/etd/send-pdf.cgi/Okutsu%20Yuko.pdf?osu1116856250) on the issue. The fact that you seem to be set on "yappari" only having overwhelmingly positive meaning(s) (your preferred being "of course", out of all the possibilities), really makes me doubt your so-called fluency and I'm not sure how else to explain to you that 'yappari' does have more than one meaning and more often than not it does depend on the context, which is why people are writing their 40-pages-thesises on this single word. There are instances in which yappari is used solely to intensify the feeling of sameness and most of all, it's interactional and works to bring two parties in dialogue to conformity, which is DEFINITELY true for this certain instance.

Re: A bit of a longer reply~

[suzukaze.livejournal.com]

he immediately followed it up by addressing Rukia and how she is part of Ichigo’s soul
That is REALLY not what he said. Bullshit alert like whoa.
Already addressed this above too, but again. That translation is not off in the least and he did immediately follow his supposed preference for Orihime up by that, so I’m not sure what you are calling your bullshit on..? All I can see is that you really seem to love this phrase a lot – calling bullshit on something – but that’s about it.

That is a huge compliment in ANY society. It's not some super-special Japanese thing. It's also not at all what he said, so natch.
Again, he did say that she was basically a PART of him (ask your lovely translator or just re-watch the video), so natch. Also, if you knew anything about Japanese culture you would know that this is a huge compliment in Japanese society and would get different reactions there compared to elsewhere. I could give you a bunch of other ‘compliments’ that someone would appreciate in the States, but not as much in Japan. So yeah, it might be a nice thing to say in any society but the way it’s received does differ from culture to culture, sorry to say.

There's still plenty of other bullshit that you seem determined to cling to.
Again, you won't detail that, will you? Two sentences have been translated, you called bullshit on both for no good reason, so what else is there even left for us to "cling to"?

And again: Read my first paragraph of this post. I didn't call you out in THIS much detail - because, like I said, I was using your comment as a jumping-off point for discussing broader issues - but I did call out a few things explicitly, particularly the "yappari" thing, which still has me boggling.
As a matter of fact, I read your whole post and the fact you weren't calling out proglution on any details was one of the main issues I had with your post. You basically started with, "OMG PROGLUTION IS A FUCKING LIAR", and then proceeded to go off on a tangent about Native Americans and the rest of what you were going off about, and then concluded it all with, "SO PROGLUTION REALLY IS A FUCKING LIAR." And I'm left here head-desking because you basically "called her out" but didn't provide any back-up for your claims, nor any actual proof. I think everyone got how big of an issue ‘yappari’ is to you, when in reality it's just not, but "those other few things" that were oh-so-wrong just kind of seem to be non-existant in your arguing.

It's about people making claims that they don't have the knowledge to back up. Your opening comment was full of some very definitive statements for somebody who claimed further down to not be fluent in Japanese.
Again, all she said was that she wasn't 100% fluent in Japanese, so way to go make another incorrect & stupid assumption based on that. Just because she's not 100% fluent and thus, no native speaker, does not mean she doesn't have any knowledge at all, especially not when it comes to society and culture.

Re: A bit of a longer reply~

[suzukaze.livejournal.com]

I've stated what my translation would be repeatedly. If you still feel the need to ask me about it, then maybe you should take a deep breath and step back, because you're certainly not reading very carefully right now, let alone translating worth shit.
I love how you're telling proglution to take a step back and read things more carefully - I think you should start following your own advice.

You can argue that Morita's use of "yappari" indicates that he was agreeing with what the American VA says or that he was trying to give the crowd the response that they wanted to hear. But neither of those arguments changes the translation of what he actually said.
This is going to be my last attempt to explain this "yappari" deal to you, so here's hoping this will get through to you one way or another. At least you have a legitimate reason to listen this time, because, as I already said, I'm fluent myself and so your superiority argument won't work. There are certain incidents in which yappari can be translated as "of course" – though I find these instances are rare - and while it might not be literally wrong in this case, the better, more appropriate way to say it would be with, "in the end", "after all" or something along those lines. "Of course" isn't a translation that always works with yappari, while the others, more often than not, do. Whether you want to believe it or not, yappari is a very subtle expression and can mean a lot of different things, and again, it depends on the context. Considering the whole cultural background, the specific circumstances Morita was placed in and the fact he immediately followed this 'preference' up by throwing in Rukia and saying how important she is to Ichigo (basically), it does give us reason enough to think that Morita was trying to be vague on purpose. It is not wrong to assume that he was trying NOT to give a definite answer which is why he decided to phrase things the way he did in the end.

To be honest, I'm really surprised you have such difficulties understanding this, seeing as you said you are both 'fluent' and you ought to have first-hand knowledge of Japanese culture. Japanese, in general, is a very subtle language - in many instances certain things can have more than one meaning, and the translation completely depends on the speaker. So nobody is "magically changing the semantic meaning" of "yappari", as you put it, but at the end of the day, two equally fluent Japanese translators can argue back and forth about something… and it's not even their fault. It's because the speaker is intentionally being vague or just the structure of phrasing he used lends itself as such. The language skews vague, in general.

So, in short - we didn't change anything because of context. We adjusted based on it to clear any unnecessary confusion, while still keeping the original meaning as accurate as it could be. For instance, while the translator saying "For Ichigo, it's definitely Orihime" is technically not wrong, it lead to a lot of confusion because people believed Morita was literally speaking for Ichigo instead of about Ichigo. proglution's attempts to explain this to you were already futile, but I hope I was able to shed some more light onto this now. What Morita tried to express here is that from his perspective and opinion, he places Orihime and Ichigo together - it's nothing more and nothing less than his own subjective belief. Thus, it wouldn't be right for fans to view his opinion as generalization of the canon series, but this is exactly what happened because of the misleading translation. Had the translator chosen, "Concerning Ichigo, it's Orihime" or something similar, this might not have happened at all. The version proglution posted was just as accurate and simply better phrased for this context (and considering the crazy fandom).

So sorry, but that's not where her "shit fell apart". Nothing fell apart here, in fact.

Re: A bit of a longer reply~

[suzukaze.livejournal.com]

Look, I don't want to be the big meanie expert smacking down the fangirl here.
You're really not - clearly, you are not an expert either, and clearly proglution isn't a fangirl. So I'm not sure where you are getting this feeling from?

But listen, and I mean this in all seriousness: You seem pretty fucking smart.
I actually really appreciate you saying that because it's true. proglution is quite smart, indeed.

But right now you are dead fucking wrong about this translation issue, as well as some of the things that you said about Japanese culture, and people who know more than you do are calling you out on it.
As this is the last “point” you have that I'm going to address, let me just conclude this by saying that, in the end, proglution wasn't wrong about any of her translations. She clarified her statements about ‘yappari’ serving as a term of agreement in context (and conformity) and that, while the translator wasn't completely wrong in this incident (which could have easily been the case, seeing as she definitely was wrong a few minutes later when saying Ichigo's father actually died, instead of saying he was just a shinigami), her translations aren't "dead-wrong" as you keep making them out to be. Nor is proglution a liar, and every piece of information she provided about Japanese culture and society is, in fact, correct. I can guarantee this, as I have experienced Japanese society in the way she described it more than once when actually living there myself.

All of this being said, I hope you’ll take your own advice, sit back a bit and think about whether you aren’t really the one a little too emotionally invested in this deal. This isn’t a competition, or a challenge about who is more fluent or knows more about Japanese culture, or whatever else you might imagine it to be. The translation and explanation proglution about the circumstances were logical and reasonable, as well as correct and accurate. In fact, a lot of them were better phrased, compared to the original translation, which is no surprise considering the translator was obviously under stress, what with doing live translations and paraphrasing etc. The only issue I, personally, had with your post is your tone throughout it ,because it made it clear that you were the only one who was getting a little too carried away – especially when it came to swearing and language and, especially in your replies to proglution. To me, all your post screamed was “wank” – it wasn’t a well-meant discussion or a “piece of advice” or anything with good intentions, as you tried to make it out to be at times. If you want to have a worthwhile discussion, for the future, I suggest actively reading (keyword being actively) the other party’s arguments and then taking a minute to also think about them. Brushing everything someone says aside just because they’re not fluent enough or knowledgeable enough (and that being nothing more than an assumption from your side!) really isn’t going to get you very far. There are always reasonable points someone will be able to make, even without them being infallible or an expert on the topic. And really, again – it’s definitely not up to you to decide if someone is an expert or not, especially not if you don’t know the other party personally.

Once again, I apologize for the length of this response, but I would appreciate it if you read until this very point. I hope you will take some of the things I said into consideration and think about them – if you don’t, well can’t be helped. I won’t be holding my breath for a response, but let me assure you that should you, for some reason, completely take this the wrong way again, I certainly don’t care for my “internet reputation”, nor do I really understand this argument in the first place. Have a nice weekend.

[crystaldawn.livejournal.com]

Holy crap, I'm so late to see this (it was linked recently on wank_report). I could swear I've seen you around somewhere before, but I have no idea where.

Anyway, I figured I'd comment since you mentioned me with this:

especially the part where she goes off on the Japanese ideal of femininity, as if there's only one popular concept of idealized femininity in Japanese culture.

Sorry if I came across that way, but I'm very well aware that there's not only one popular concept of Japanese femininity, in manga/anime or otherwise. I was mostly referring to the Yamato Nadeshiko ideal, but didn't feel like it was the proper place to go on a long tangent on the subject of Japanese feminism.

I do agree about everything else in this post, though.

[nenena.livejournal.com]

...This got linked on wank_report? "Recently"?

Huh wow. I didn't know that fandom_wank was interested in seven-month-old wanks.