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Entertainment Weekly's continuing coverage of Sparkledammerung: The Second Coming
A Brony explains why fans say 'neigh' to Princess Twilight:
And that's it.
That's the meat of the entire article.
That's the reason.
So this is what it boils down to: Bronies identify with Twilight because she's nerdy, but princesses are terrible, therefore Twilight turning into a princess is terrible.
Because princesses are terrible. No other reason given. LITERALLY NO OTHER REASON GIVEN other than "princesses suck and we hate them." And why do Bronies hate princesses so much? Why is their favorite pony turning into a princess somehow the equivalent of getting a slap to the face?
Because princesses are girly things, and as we all know, girly things are just terrible.
Like I said before, there is literally NO OTHER WAY TO PARSE THIS BACKLASH other than to see it for the astounding misogyny that it truly is.
Over 2500 comments on the Equestria Daily article and not a single one of them gives a reason to hate the princess transformation other than princesses suck and we hate them. Not a single one of the comments gives a reason any deeper than that. Not a single one.
The EW article linked above goes even further in depth covering the backlash against Princess Cadence's appearance in the season 2 finale. And why was there complaining about Princess Cadence? According to Sethisto:
And why, exactly, would a pretty pink alicorn princess be "the exact opposite" of what Bronies want? Sethisto doesn't say, but I'll bet money it's because traits like being pink and being pretty and being a princess are (*gasp*) GIRLY!!!!1! Never mind the fact that Cadence is a fantastic character who was clearly set up as being powerful, important, and central to the story of the season 2 finale well before the episodes aired on television. In fact, I think that's what made the backlash against Cadence all the more vehement: How DARE a new character who's clearly set up to be super-powerful in the MLP fictional universe and super-important to the plot of the show be (*gasp*) pink and pretty and a princess oh noes!!!!
In short, Brony fandom has once again established that it is firmly entrenched in the mindset that all things girly are terrible and gross and wrong. Which is REALLY UNFORTUNATE considering that this is a fandom for a cartoon for girls.
Shortly after EW broke the news of Twilight’s transformation this Tuesday, the fan community exploded into a flurry of commentary — most of it negative. [...] The backlash has been even worse on fan sites like Equestria Daily (where the original post about Twilight’s princessification has drawn over 2,500 comments) and Reddit’s pony-centric message board (where hundreds of fans have expressed fervent hopes that the royal metamorphosis isn’t permanent).
So why, exactly, are bronies getting their bridles in a twist? “It’s just your typical overreaction to something changing in your favorite series,” Equestria Daily founder Sethisto (real name: Shaun Scotellaro) tells EW. There is, however, a little more to this specific outcry: “I think the main thing is that it’s happening to a character so many people connect to. Twilight Sparkle, she’s more of a nerd. She’s like all of us, that geeky nerd who reads books and gets all excited about stupid stuff.” The prospect of the show’s audience surrogate getting all gussied up, then, sort of feels like a slap in the face to MLP‘s grown-up fans.
And that's it.
That's the meat of the entire article.
That's the reason.
So this is what it boils down to: Bronies identify with Twilight because she's nerdy, but princesses are terrible, therefore Twilight turning into a princess is terrible.
Because princesses are terrible. No other reason given. LITERALLY NO OTHER REASON GIVEN other than "princesses suck and we hate them." And why do Bronies hate princesses so much? Why is their favorite pony turning into a princess somehow the equivalent of getting a slap to the face?
Because princesses are girly things, and as we all know, girly things are just terrible.
Like I said before, there is literally NO OTHER WAY TO PARSE THIS BACKLASH other than to see it for the astounding misogyny that it truly is.
Over 2500 comments on the Equestria Daily article and not a single one of them gives a reason to hate the princess transformation other than princesses suck and we hate them. Not a single one of the comments gives a reason any deeper than that. Not a single one.
The EW article linked above goes even further in depth covering the backlash against Princess Cadence's appearance in the season 2 finale. And why was there complaining about Princess Cadence? According to Sethisto:
“Cadance was a pretty pink alicorn princess. That’s, like, the exact opposite of what we wanted.”
And why, exactly, would a pretty pink alicorn princess be "the exact opposite" of what Bronies want? Sethisto doesn't say, but I'll bet money it's because traits like being pink and being pretty and being a princess are (*gasp*) GIRLY!!!!1! Never mind the fact that Cadence is a fantastic character who was clearly set up as being powerful, important, and central to the story of the season 2 finale well before the episodes aired on television. In fact, I think that's what made the backlash against Cadence all the more vehement: How DARE a new character who's clearly set up to be super-powerful in the MLP fictional universe and super-important to the plot of the show be (*gasp*) pink and pretty and a princess oh noes!!!!
In short, Brony fandom has once again established that it is firmly entrenched in the mindset that all things girly are terrible and gross and wrong. Which is REALLY UNFORTUNATE considering that this is a fandom for a cartoon for girls.
no subject
Reading your last post on the Princessocalypse, I was wondering if the Bronies' vehement dislike of Twilight Sparkle turning into a princess is not only that princesses are girly and therefore gross, but because being a princess would mean that TWILIGHT SPARKLE is a girl. Like, since the ponies don't look like human girls the men watching can relate to them better because they don't have to think of them as girls. (I am especially inclined to wonder this with the "Twilight Sparkle is a nerd like us" comment.)
When I was a kid one of my favorite video games ever was Kid Icarus. But I was disappointed as HELL in the ending, when the main character hits puberty and gets a bunch of manly muscles. I couldn't say why I was disappointed at the time. But, see, the main character is a boy angel who wears a toga. And I knew consciously he was a boy, but with his prepubescence and angel wings and dresslike outfit I related to him especially because he looked like a girl. When I could no longer deny that he was, in fact, a dude, my heart broke a little bit and I was REALLY FUCKING PISSED even though I did not know why. (ETA: A much fainter echo of this feeling happened when I played Ocarina of Time and Link grows into a man.)
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But I don't think that any Bronies are pretending that Twilight isn't a girl...? I mean, she's already a purple unicorn named Twilight Sparkle who fights evil with a magical tiara and who is given a very, very feminine voice by Tara Strong. I think a lot of Bronies identify with her because she's antisocial and nerdy, but I don't think that they view her as "not feminine" in any way. At least not the way that you're describing being able to view Kid Icarus as "not masculine" and therefore being able project femininity on him because he looked like a girl. Twilight Sparkle doesn't look like a boy or sound like a boy, so it's not quite the same thing.
But yeah you're definitely right that SOME element of projection is clearly at work here, and Twilight becoming a princess messes with that projection/identification because Bronies don't want to identify with a character who is a princess. Because princesses are icky. Or something.
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Yeah, you're definitely right--an 8-bit mass of pixels with no speaking voice Twilight Sparkle is not. Maybe Final Girls in slasher movies would be a better example? They're girls, but they are never too girly. Even if they don't have a boy's name or aren't androgynous (and there are plenty of Final Girls who do and are), they probably won't like makeup and doing their hair and wearing pretty dresses.
But I do think there's a connection between "Twilight Sparkle is like us" and "OMG being a princess RUINS HER FOREVER (and is gross) and now she can't be like us anymore!" which a) involves "here is a female character I relate to, partly because her girliness is evident but not really shoved in my face, and NOW YOU ARE SHOVING HER GIRLINESS IN MY FACE GROSS." and b) is pretty much what you said. Er.
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Okay, I hate to be that guy...
(Anonymous) 2013-02-04 03:53 pm (UTC)(link)1. Relatability. You're right that people are complaining about her becoming less relatable, but I'm not sure it's because of the "princess" thing; it's more the power and status that that position represents. Twilight was popular because she was an socially awkward girl trying to bumble her way through life without messing anything up. Even if she was the personal student of Celestia, she still came across as a just a regular person dealing with the stress of everyday friendships and life, and it was something that a large chunk of the fanbase could relate to. Giving her an upgrade by giving her more authority and power destroys that ability to relate. It's not that she's a princess, specifically, but that she's now been put on a pedestal where she's more powerful than she was. It's much harder for someone to relate to a ruler than to a student.
2. It irrevocably changes up the character dynamics that the show is built on. For the entire run of the show up to this point, the mane cast has been pretty much on equal terms with each other. They have different skills and abilities, but in terms of status they were all more or less on the same social level. Upgrading Twilight screws that up because it means she has a level of status that the rest of the cast likely won't obtain (it's possible that they might, but I'm not holding my breath). It's making it out like Twilight is better than the other cast members, and that idea leaves a bad taste in people's mouths when the show previously went with the idea that the cast were all on the same level. I mean, take the show's slice of life episodes, "Look Before You Sleep", "Winter Wrap up", "Applebuck Season", etc. It's going to be really hard to have episodes like those when one of the main characters is a super-powered princess.
3. It falls foul of the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" rule. Basically, while the change might ultimately be for the good or bad of the show, most people view such a change in the status quo as unnecessary. Nothing in the show necessitates Twilight's ascension, and there are many people who liked the show as it was and are afraid of losing the show they've come to enjoy because the writers wanted to shake things up. Basically, nothing can be the same after this, and many don't think the change was necessary.
Basically, yes, some people take offense to the "princess" part, but for many it doesn't have anything to do with the girliness of it, it's the fact that the show is getting changed at the most basic level by modifying a beloved character in an unnecessary way. It doesn't matter that she's a princess; she could just as easily have been made into a grand vizier or a king or whatever. It's the Alicorn part that people dislike, that Twilight is being upgraded over her friends.
I may be personally in the "let's wait for the episode" camp, but I admit to being wary of the idea because while it could be done right, there are many other ways that it could be done wrong. If Twilight is still Twilight when all is said and done, it's fine if she's a princess.
Re: Okay, I hate to be that guy...
And you think this will go away just because she becomes a princess?
You just described the basic hook of like, every princess movie and princess TV show ever. The POINT of most princess stories is that the princess is really just a regular person who's awkward and quirky and just trying not to bungle things up. I think a lot of Bronies are missing out on this obviousness because they don't consume a lot of other media for little girls, but trust me, this IS the hook for most princess stories. It really is.
For the entire run of the show up to this point, the mane cast has been pretty much on equal terms with each other. They have different skills and abilities, but in terms of status they were all more or less on the same social level.
No, this has never been true. Twilight has always had a higher social status compared to the other five, AND she's always been in a position of authority over them. Just look at every episode in which she's ordered them to do something and/or passed on orders from Celestia. But guess what? They still interacted as equals. I highly doubt this will change just because Twilight gains a pair of wings.
The show ALREADY provides a dynamic in which Twilight, being of higher status (from Canterlot, representing the authority of Celestia, able to give orders to the others, and able to lead the others on missions/adventures) interacts as an equal with the other five ponies. You're describing a problem that the show has already fixed. Because it's never been a problem in the first place.
I mean, take the show's slice of life episodes, "Look Before You Sleep", "Winter Wrap up", "Applebuck Season", etc. It's going to be really hard to have episodes like those when one of the main characters is a super-powered princess.
I literally DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE ARE ARGUING THIS
I mean, we've already seen that Princess Cadence did mundane shit like babysitting when she was younger. And we have no reason to believe that Twilight is going to leave her post at Ponyville or stop having to learn about the magic of friendship just because she gets a powerup. I am one hundred percent certain that the season will end with Twilight still in Ponyville, and still having to study friendship, which still gives her a reason to do those slice-of-life things with the other ponies. She will probably have some more responsibilities and more powers, but there's no way that any of this is going to change up the formula of the show in the fundamental way that you're describing. It's still going to be a show about six pony friends doing stuff, even if one of them has more magic than she did before.
Again, remember: Cadence. Babysitting. It's been established that young princesses can and will do mundane everyday stuff. Your slice-of-life episodes aren't going to disappear.
It falls foul of the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" rule. Basically, while the change might ultimately be for the good or bad of the show, most people view such a change in the status quo as unnecessary.
Except that this is a change which has been foreshadowed since the very beginning of the show, and which is the logical next step in Twilight's character arc. You may call it unnecessary, but I see it as something that Twilight's character has been heading toward for a long time. It's a fulfillment Twilight's destiny which has been foreshadowed for three seasons. It had to happen eventually.
It's the Alicorn part that people dislike, that Twilight is being upgraded over her friends.
(*headdesk*)
Twilight has ALWAYS been more powerful and more central to the show than her friends. Didn't the fact that she's the only one with an Element of Harmony that's a sparkly tiara tip y'all off?
If Twilight is still Twilight when all is said and done, it's fine if she's a princess.
SHE WILL BE. I still don't understand why everybody is assuming that she won't be.
Re: Okay, I hate to be that guy...
(Anonymous) 2013-02-07 02:03 am (UTC)(link)Not only that, but I know a brony who's upset by the upcoming finale because "it will make all non-alicorn Twilight fanfics obsolete." EVERY EPISODE MAKES SOME CATEGORY OF FANFIC OBSOLETE.
I love the show, and I accept the demographic that holds precedence over us. But I think some of our priorities became skewered somewhere along the line. To this day, I still don't know where people got the whole "love and tolerance" thing since that's not what the show is even about. (I'd say it's more a slogan for the fandom than the show, but still.) I also hate it when people use bronydom as an excuse to be a dick to more rational skeptics.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2013-02-04 10:10 pm (UTC)(link)Wow, I didn't realise I wrote that much.
Facts
(Anonymous) 2013-02-04 10:39 pm (UTC)(link)1) It's a marketing move by Hasbro and a sign they are taking over control of the show.
2) She'd become an overpowered "mary sue".
3) It would wreck the "balancing" (2 unicorns, 2 earth ponies, 2 pegasi).
4) It would elevate Twilight above her friends.
5) Twilight would become "immortal" and watch as her friends died.
6) The show would switch from Slice of Life to Adventure in genre.
7) Twilight loses her "cuteness" when she has wings.
8) Because she's a princess, she'd have to move back to Canterlot.
Of course, those reasons don't make a lot of sense, but those are the reasons. Not some form of "evil males showing their hatred of women".
It's ludicrous to think that the anti-Twilicorn faction hates princesses. Luna has been one of the most popular secondary characters and has thousands of fanfics and fanart devoted to her. Celestia is beloved by almost the whole fandom. Even Cadance has been welcomed by a majority and has grown into a well liked addition to the fanfics and fanart.
In summary, the anti-Twilicorn faction dislikes Twilicorn not because she's becoming a princess, but because she's becoming an ALICORN.
Re: Facts
First of all, it's "misogyny."
1) It's a marketing move by Hasbro and a sign they are taking over control of the show.
EVERYTHING IN THE SHOW FROM THE BEGINNING HAS BEEN A MARKETING MOVE BY HASBRO
And you know what? THAT'S OKAY. But leave it to Bronies to desperately cling to the idea that MLP isn't ~supposed~ to be a show that sells toys to girls, because clearly nothing intended to sell toys to girls can be *good* on any level.
I'm sorry, but MLP has always been a marketing tool, right from the very first episode. It is a show whose primary purpose is to sell toys to girls. And it's still a great show on a lot of levels. Some of the best decisions in the show story-wise and character-wise were intended to tie in to those toy sales. Get over it.
2) She'd become an overpowered "mary sue".
Calling a female character a "mary sue" is nearly always a misogynistic argument. Congratulations, you just proved my point.
Especially when you're applying the label "mary sue" to the MAIN CHARACTER in a series whose powerup fits perfectly into the ongoing story of the series and has been foreshadowed for a long time.
When Bronies moan about the super-powerful magical unicorn who has always been the main character of the series being a "mary sue," then that is sexism.
4) It would elevate Twilight above her friends.
5) Twilight would become "immortal" and watch as her friends died.
6) The show would switch from Slice of Life to Adventure in genre.
8) Because she's a princess, she'd have to move back to Canterlot.
I already addressed all of this in my response to the guy who didn't want to be That Guy above.
7) Twilight loses her "cuteness" when she has wings.
If your argument is that Bronies who object to Princess Twilight aren't basing their objections in sexism, then... You really should be finding arguments that aren't as obviously sexist as this.
Of course, those reasons don't make a lot of sense, but those are the reasons. Not some form of "evil males showing their hatred of women".
I'd find this a lot easier to believe if the fandom weren't already so full of evil males showing their hatred of women. Have you SEEN some of the comments about Meghan McCarthy on the EW article?!
It's ludicrous to think that the anti-Twilicorn faction hates princesses.
Then why do so many of the comments start and stop at hating princesses.
Luna has been one of the most popular secondary characters and has thousands of fanfics and fanart devoted to her. Celestia is beloved by almost the whole fandom.
Luna, yes. But Celestia? The character that Brony fandom consistently portrays as an evil dictator? Are you kidding me?
Even Cadance has been welcomed by a majority and has grown into a well liked addition to the fanfics and fanart.
Notice how you had to qualify your statement there.
Cadence WAS welcomed after her episode finally aired. But in the weeks leading up to the season 2 finale? It was all the same: Thousands of comments about how much it sucked that another princess was being added to the show, and how Cadence was clearly intended as a cheap marketing ploy to cater to little girls (the PRIMARY DEMOGRAPHIC OF THE SHOW - oh noes!!). And as Sethisto explained so honestly in the EW article: this was all because Cadence was pink, pretty, and a princess. Traits that Bronies do not like and did not want.
In summary, the anti-Twilicorn faction dislikes Twilicorn not because she's becoming a princess, but because she's becoming an ALICORN.
And the reasons that you listed for disliking the fact that she's an alicorn
are either so stupid that you have to wonder if the Bronies making those objections either a) watch the show at all or b) aren't desperately scrambling to come up with objections in order to hide the basic "ew princess!" revulsion that many other Bronies openly express
or just plain BLATANTLY SEXIST.
Good job!
Re: Facts
(Anonymous) 2013-02-07 09:17 pm (UTC)(link)As far as Celestia goes though portraying her as an evil dictator is almost always done as a joke, not many fans actually have anything against her.
Re: Facts
And I've seen plenty of Bronies who actually take the whole "Celestia is evil" thing seriously, mostly because she imprisoned her sister for 1000 years. You know, her sister who had turned evil and was never going to let the sun rise again. Yeah.
Re: Facts
(Anonymous) 2013-02-08 01:13 am (UTC)(link)Re: Facts
no subject
Seriously though, how many times does it need to be stated that this is show is geared towards little girls? Little girls like ponies and princesses (I was raised on Disney and the original My Little Pony), that's kind of just how it is in this culture (let's not go in to arguments of child rearing and exposure to various cartoons and such that 'decide' what girls should like and what boys should like).
It's the bashing of overly obsessed fans like this that made me keep my likes and fandoms to myself for so many years.
For Hasbro: Can we have some Bushwoolies(spelling?) and Sea Ponies in season four please?
no subject
I'm pretty amused that anyone's surprised about Twilight's promotion. I mean, she was always Celestia's protege, from the very beginning, and she's always had way beefier magical powers than her peers. Plus it's in keeping with standard girls' show tropes for the lead character to become some variety of princess, but I guess the Bronies wouldn't know about such things.
Frankly, I've had a distaste for the Bronies ever since they coined that stupid nickname for themselves, because they felt the need to point out that they were different from those other MLP fans i.e. little girls.
no subject
Wow yeah that actually rings very true from what I've observed. I think you hit the nail on the head right there.
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(Anonymous) 2013-02-15 08:54 pm (UTC)(link)This is a Hasbro brand we're talking about, good god.
I think they should just put George R.R. Martin in charge of story direction and give them a real reason to gripe.