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Magical girls: like Al Qaeda, in a way.
There are moments when I think that Gen Urobuchi is every bit as surprised and aghast at fandom's reaction to Madoka Magica (specifically, in reading it as some sort of empowering feminist thing) as I am.
Just in case it Urobuchi saying "but it's supposed to be tragic, not empowering!" over and over again in interviews isn't enough, though, there's this lovely little wordbomb that he dropped in an interview with the Asahi Shinbun on August 30th:
MAGICAL GIRLS: LIKE AL-QAEDA, IN A WAY.
I'm going to quote a friend on dreamwidth about this interview, because even though her post is flocked and I feel terrible for breaking the flock here, I just can't articulate my reaction to the Asahi Shinbun interview any better than she already did, so here goes:
As usual, yes, you can project a feminist reading onto an anti-feminist text. There's nothing wrong with that. But Madoka fandom's curious insistence that the series was intended as a feminist statement by the creators despite the creators themselves continuing to insist otherwise is, frankly, FUCKING AMAZING to me. It continues to be amazing to be especially in light of this latest interview.
When I watched Madoka that is basically exactly what I took away from it. I didn't see an empowering feminist story. I saw a lot of otaku-pleasing moe bullshit wrapped around a grimdark-for-the-sake-of-grimdark storyline that ultimately climaxed in an ending that very clearly had been broadcast from the very beginning of the series. And I saw all of that before I actually started looking into what Urobuchi et al had said about their intent behind the creation of the series. I'm not saying any of this to be smug or claim that I have some ~deeper understanding~ of the series than anybody else. It's just that I thought that the message of the series was pretty clear from the beginning - Madoka may be a lot of things, but subtle it is not - and I'm still sitting here nearly half a year later enormously confused as to how such a huge (and hugely defensive!) fandom sprang up around this show and the entwined concepts that it was a) a deconstruction of the magical girl genre or b) intended to be feminist in any way shape or form whatsoever.
Just in case it Urobuchi saying "but it's supposed to be tragic, not empowering!" over and over again in interviews isn't enough, though, there's this lovely little wordbomb that he dropped in an interview with the Asahi Shinbun on August 30th:
Asahi: Madoka Magica is an original story. Where did the idea come from?
Urobuchi: I received a request to write a bloody story where magical girls appear, and then drop out one by one.
Asahi: Magical girls, who are full of hope and who strive to save the people, soon suffer from hatred and jealousy, which turn them into the enemy witches. The change from good to evil left an emotional impact.
Urobuchi: For example, Al-Qaeda brought down the Twin Towers due to their self-righteousness. Justice for some people is an evil for others. Good intentions, kindness, and hope will not necessarily make people happy.
MAGICAL GIRLS: LIKE AL-QAEDA, IN A WAY.
I'm going to quote a friend on dreamwidth about this interview, because even though her post is flocked and I feel terrible for breaking the flock here, I just can't articulate my reaction to the Asahi Shinbun interview any better than she already did, so here goes:
Madoka is not a feminist work. It is a work designed to punish its female protagonists for caring and to blame them for their beliefs; everything in it was written with murder in its eyes. This is what it was written to do by its author. Claiming it as empowering to girls and/or women is in direct contradiction to the creator's aims. THIS IS NOT NEGOTIABLE, THIS IS A FACT.
As usual, yes, you can project a feminist reading onto an anti-feminist text. There's nothing wrong with that. But Madoka fandom's curious insistence that the series was intended as a feminist statement by the creators despite the creators themselves continuing to insist otherwise is, frankly, FUCKING AMAZING to me. It continues to be amazing to be especially in light of this latest interview.
When I watched Madoka that is basically exactly what I took away from it. I didn't see an empowering feminist story. I saw a lot of otaku-pleasing moe bullshit wrapped around a grimdark-for-the-sake-of-grimdark storyline that ultimately climaxed in an ending that very clearly had been broadcast from the very beginning of the series. And I saw all of that before I actually started looking into what Urobuchi et al had said about their intent behind the creation of the series. I'm not saying any of this to be smug or claim that I have some ~deeper understanding~ of the series than anybody else. It's just that I thought that the message of the series was pretty clear from the beginning - Madoka may be a lot of things, but subtle it is not - and I'm still sitting here nearly half a year later enormously confused as to how such a huge (and hugely defensive!) fandom sprang up around this show and the entwined concepts that it was a) a deconstruction of the magical girl genre or b) intended to be feminist in any way shape or form whatsoever.
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Im surprised at some of the bullshit I see fans write about Madoka being empowering feminist shit. I can't remember where this gem came from, but when I read it I thought it was so lol-arious and amazing that I actually had to save it in a notepad document for sheer lulz:
"Madoka is a radical feminist tract. Kyubey is symbolic of the patriarchy offering to fulfill the wishes of women but trapping them in a state of perpetual adolescence. There minds and bodies split in a male Cartesian manner rather then a holistic feminine one.
Modoka by subverting the patriarchy by turning its tools against itself, embraces the goddess principal within herself and transcends the limitations placed on not just herself but all women."
LOL
Are you getting trolled again too? Just curious as to what brought this up. That and just a couple nights ago I got another spew of stupid dumbass questions on formspring. The fact that this is still happening a half a year later is pretty fucking mindblowing.
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And no, thankfully, I'm not getting trolled right now. This was brought up because it showed up on the ANN news feed a couple nights ago and then my friend on dreamwidth wrote a brilliant response to it.
I'm sorry that you're still getting trolled, though. :( I get sporadic comments every now and then, but I just delete them. You're right, though - it still amazes me that the fandom just WILL NOT LET THIS GO even half a year later. Well, the fact that it devolved into rapetrolling in the first place still amazes me, actually.
As for that awesome bit of hilarity that you quoted... Mmmm, smells like it was written by a male neckbeard.
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Then again, I liked the show primarily for its character designs. I know I sound like one of my friends who liked the Eva char designs but despises everything else about the show, and got trolled hard for criticizing Eva years ago.
Both fandoms are equally batshit.
The idea of a self-righetous magical girl causing more harm then good is a good one. I'm reminded of this combination show that did a comedic version of it- don't remember the name of the show, it was something weird and long, but had two sub-shows called Gedou Otome Tae and Love Pheronome.
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It's definitely a neat twist, but like you said: predictable as hell, and also done before many times in other magical girl shows. Which in a normal context wouldn't actually be a criticism of the series at all - after all, what's more important than whether a story has been done before or not is the question of whether it's executed well - but this isn't a normal context. This is a context in which the fandom seems quite adamant that the very existence of this plot twist somehow makes Madoka a deconstruction... somehow. Also it's totes original and revolutionary and has never been done before!!!
The idea of a self-righetous magical girl causing more harm then good is a good one. I'm reminded of this combination show that did a comedic version of it- don't remember the name of the show, it was something weird and long, but had two sub-shows called Gedou Otome Tae and Love Pheronome.
Akahori Gedō Hour Rabuge, perhaps?
Sailor Galaxia pretty much embodied this trope in a non-comedic way, too.
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Most of those fans you're talking about are young, and probably don't recognize any anime before Eva.
To me the strength of the show is the char designs though, even Madoka I kinda like (though I understand why many folks don't)
I did feel more could have been done with the show, I feel like a 26ep version of Madoka would have been better. It felt rushed some.
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Of course if the series did that, it wouldnt be nearly as popular, thus not anywhere near as profitable. Though it would actually be a billion times better. Pity.
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Though I agree with wishing that the characters were older. I'm getting rather tired of all these moe schoolgirls who look like 5-year-olds.
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I guess its a matter of perspective, but thats how I felt about it.
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In Mermaid Melody the girls are all mixed ages, the youngest being 14 and the oldest being 20-something. Two of the seven mermaids are 18 years old.
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I agree about Madoka needing to be longer. Particularly Sayaka's descent into corruption — what was it, like three episodes from when she made the contract to when she witch-ified? Even though she had ample reasons to be angsty, the speed of it made it feel melodramatic to me.
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I guess I can appreciate him being honest ;p it would've annoyed me had he started off saying all this stuff and then when the fandom made all those feminist claims, he suddenly had a major change of beliefs and started saying its an epic feminist series or something. Kinda like Zack Snyder on Sucker Punch. Barf.
You dont have to apologize for anything ;) The funniest thing about these troll comments though, is that a lot of them are accusing me of throwing hate around. Which is hilarious, because I havent ranted about Madoka in forever and ive been trying to move on to better things, but these people just keep BRINGING IT UP and insulting me about minor criticisms I made months ago. And they say im the one throwing around hate, pfff.
I wonder what Urobochi would think if someone showed him that quote. Haha.
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HAHAHA GEN UROBUCHI I KIND OF LOVE YOU NOW
Ugh, seriously, I can't understand where this whole "Madoka is feminist" nonsense came from. I love the show, but I love it because it's essentially "Magical Girl genre GONE HORRIBLY WRONG" and since the Magical Girl genre's whole shtick is female empowerment, then it follows that if it GOES HORRIBLY WRONG, the result is not going to be feminist. I mean, the female characters spend most of their time being cosmic playthings with no control over their destinies and no options besides "suffer and die horribly, a lot." Again, I dig it, but it ain't feminist. Fandom, can't we just enjoy it for what it is?
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Re: better late than never
If you want to continue the conversation, could you please comment again - this time without your email address?