nenena | I have been biting my tongue while the rest of my flist posts about Madoka Magica.

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I have been biting my tongue while the rest of my flist posts about Madoka Magica.

And I can hold back no longer.

I fucking hate this show. Jesus I hate this show so much. I've watched all eight insufferable episodes of it so far because people keep telling me that I just don't get it and let me assure you, yes, I GET IT. I get exactly what this show is about. I get what it's trying to say. I get what it's doing. Fuck, I predicted the SHOCKING PLOT TWIST in episode 8 by the time that I had finished the third episode so yes, let me assure you, I GET THIS SHOW.

I also think that it's a pile of ass.

First, I hate the way that this show acts like it is the FIRST EVER "clever" deconstruction of the magical girl genre. I hate the way that this show is consistently praised as being a totes original deconstruction of the magical girl genre.

Utena. Magic Knight Rayearth. Princess Tutu. Pig Girl Tonde Boorin. Puni Puni Poemi. Angel Hunt. Alien9. Sugar Sugar Rune. Uta Kata.

All of the above were deliberate deconstructions of the magical girl genre, and they did it first and did it better than Madoka Magica did. The only thing new* that Madoka Magica has brought to the table is upping the gore and violence factor, which as anyone who reads Western comics and is sick of grimdarkviolent storylines being mistaken for being "more grown-up" content can tell you, is not the way to make you cartoon show more mature.

*"New" in the sense of being new to shows that are deconstructions of the magical girl genre, not "new" to anime in general. The pairing of adorable little girls + excessive grimdarkviolent storylines is once again neither clever nor original. Heck, that was already an hold hat trick by the time that Gunslinger Girl and Higurashi were doing it.

I have a lot of issues with Madoka Magica, number two being that it somehow has convinced a lot of people that it is terribly clever and original while being almost insufferably unoriginal in everything that it does. Number one being that it is a deconstruction of the magical girl genre but coming from a very icky place, as magical girl in and of itself is a deconstruction. Magical girl shows are about female empowerment in a society in which little girls IRL have little power or agency; deconstructing the idea of female empowerment in the shallow and poorly-thought-out way that Madoka Magica does only ends up casting the entire idea of female empowerment as this dangerous, evil thing. That's not a fucking deconstruction. That's the status quo. That's the status quo masquerading as a clever deconstruction while dressed in all of this moe trapping so that fanboys can have their cake (moe girls acting moe and vulnerable) and eat it too (fool themselves into thinking that they're watching something terribly clever and intellectual that has Important Things to Say about an entire genre of anime when it really has nothing deep or original to say at all).

Okay, rant finished. I'm sorry, but I just had to get that off my chest.

ETA: Continued here.

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*pat pat*

I've been pretty much avoiding it, mostly for the reasons you said you don't like it. The spoilers I've gotten pretty much convinced me I don't wanna see it.

glad I didn't recommend it. I'm really enjoying it though. I enjoyed most of those other shows you mentioned, or haven't watched them though. Uta Kata and Utena in particular.

Most of my friends were comparing this show to Utena, which is high praise for them. (haven't seen up to ep 8, I'm in fanboy mode so I'm actually caring about quality of subs/etc. Last shows I did that for was Haruhi and Bakumatsu Kikansetsu Irohanihoheto.

I think that Uta Kata is very much what Madoka Magica wishes it could be: A deceptively moe-looking magical girl show that mixes scenes of cute girls being cute with a grimdark storyline in which a girl accepts power from a seemingly helpful sidekick only to discover that a) using her power comes at a high personal cost and b) the seemingly helpful sidekick wants the negative consequences to happen for a specific reason. Of course, Uta Kata managed to accomplish a seriously grimdark tone without resorting to cheap shock violence, and managed to deconstruct magical girl conventions without pissing all over the girl characters, presenting them as fodder for vulnerability!fetishists, or presenting the idea of violent strength as being inherently evil. The last part is where I think one of Madoka Magica's biggest missteps so far has been, as "girls using violence is evil dark and wrong" is not exactly a great message to be broadcasting in the context of a culture in which consistently devalues and denigrates female strength in every possible arena, from sports to martial arts to the military to even self-defense classes. As long as we've got a fictional world in which monsters exist, girls being able to fight those monsters should not always be presented as this horrible evil thing.

You might like Zettai Karen Children- it's a mix of sitcom with some trappings of the dark underbelly of having fearful powers as a child. At least through the parts that were covered in the anime, it's a really well done series. (You'd have to give the anime about 3-4 eps to get its stride in)

You got a point on your criticisms of Madoka, and I'm not a fan of that myself after thinking about it. That said, I've been holding off judgement on this series until the end, because I've been expecting a disappointing ending.

I've only seen up to ep.6, when I'm enjoying a show I try to avoid the speedsubbers, and the group that did ZKC is doing this show, and they do a good job on stuff so I'm waiting on them.

I really enjoy the ZKC manga, but I've yet to see the anime. :)

If you've only seen up to episode 6 of Madoka Magica then you haven't gotten to the SHOCKING TWIST yet, but it's an extremely predictable shocking twist. ;)

Eva was enjoyable but not overly deep to me. I have a friend who really, REALLY hates the show, PSG and Madoka Magica- so was wondering.

Yeah, I'm expecting to not be overly surprised with MM. It is making more sense that it's mostly guys who I've seen like the show now though.

The anime is a little lighter in tone then the manga, and out of order, I wouldn't rec if you've read the manga up to that point (I would rec the OVA though as a fun romp with the characters, and some blatant foe yay troping)

That's exactly my problem with Panty & Stocking, I have no problem with people liking the show of course, but it irks me when people say "it's super original, the best show of the year, a critic to the magical girl and moe style etc. etc.", basically making the show sound more deep than in reality it is :/ .

I hated Panty & Stocking for that exact same reason. Every time that somebody said that it was a deconstruction of moe I had to roll my eyes. It deconstructed nothing and I'm amazed at how many people insisted that it did. I think I would have enjoyed Panty & Stocking a lot more if there had been more of a fandom that enjoyed it for what it was - a fanservice-laden, sexyfuntimes romp through raunchiness - but the fandom that did exist for the show just killed it for me. I'm amazed at how many people insisted that the show was deconstructing moe or sexist anime tropes or making any sort of feminist statement whatsoever. Just amazed.

But I spent all of my willpower biting my tongue and holding back while the rest of my flist was busy creaming themselves over Panty & Stocking, so that's why I'm all out of tongue-biting willpower right now.

I avoided Panty and Stocking myself.

Just curious: did you really hate Eva?

I don't hate Eva. I don't adore it or anything either, but I think that it's an enjoyable show in and of itself, and the current movies are a vast improvement over the original.

I like Madoka Magica, but not as the greatest magical girl show of all time :\ I just like it cause its just a darker take on the genre. Almost like a parody, given how the opening theme is and how literally nothing in the opening theme happens.

The show will never surpass classic magical girl shows like Card Captor Sakura or Princess Tutu. I just like it because its dark and morbid, and im attracted to shows like that. Like how I was attracted to Soul Eater and Pandora Hearts, etc etc

Ive had people comment on the fan trailer I made, saying its "the best magical girl show of all time" which I highly disagree with. Just because its dark doesnt mean its better then every other magical girl show, especially since it gives off the wrong message, portraying the girls as... literally dead and powerless (having souls ripped out and the like) wheras magical girl is supposed to be about female empowerment, like you said.

I understand where you're coming from completely, i'm just still on the side of the spectrum that enjoys the show.

Thats my opinion anyway.

Oh, there's nothing wrong with liking the show. I don't, but that doesn't mean that nobody else can.

The biggest reason that I dislike the show is because, as the Nostalgia Critic recently put it, I tend to hate it when a show/movie presents itself as being completely original when it's actually something that's been said/done to death before. But then again NC said that when explaining why he couldn't stand Moulin Rouge, which is a movie that I thoroughly enjoy despite the fact that I *know* that it's completely unoriginal, shallow, and derivative. Doesn't mean that it's not still fun to watch.

So I get where you're coming from with liking the show, too. ;)

I personally dont think its the show trying to present an original idea, rather the fandom or whoever it is trying to convince you that it is. In all honestly i hardly even see the series as a magical girl series, especially since the heroine (who is my least favorite character so far) has done nothing heroic at this point (and when she tried to, she accidentally killed her friend. Whoop). I kind of like it when my magical girl heroines are badass thanks |:

I also think its stupid how people are telling you that "you just dont get it", though, like there's no logical excuse for disliking the show. What the hell?

ps I apologize in advance for any possible upcoming posts about the series and the fact im doing another amv to it. But im also doing a princess tutu amv thats almost done, is that a good trade off? :'D

I also think its stupid how people are telling you that "you just dont get it", though, like there's no logical excuse for disliking the show. What the hell?

"You just don't get it" is and always will be the most painfully stupid defense to whip out whenever somebody criticizes something that you like, period. Nothing makes me roll my eyes harder.

I still remember the first time that "you just don't get it" was used on me. I was in high school and somebody asked me if I liked Shrek. (This was back when only the first movie was out.) I said that I found it boring and unfunny. Then this person went off on a rant about how "but it's a parody of Disney!! How could you not understand that?!?! You just don't get it! It's supposed to be making fun of Disney!!!"

Yeah, uh, I did get that. Trust me. There was no way that anybody could not have understood that Shrek was making fun of Disney. But just being a parody of Disney wasn't enough to automatically make the movie hilarious. It had to, you know, be a funny parody of Disney in order to work. (Fortunately the second movie was!)

I think that's what people really mean when they say "you just don't get it." They assume that the premise of whatever show/movie you're criticizing is ENOUGH to make the show automatically awesome, and that if you don't like the show then you clearly must be too stupid to understand the premise. It's a two-for-one special of self-reflexive stupid: They don't understand why the premise alone is not enough to magically make a show/movie inarguably awesome, but they're convinced that they're terribly clever for understanding the (often completely obvious) point of the show/movie, therefore they must be smarter than YOU who failed to understand the point.

ps I apologize in advance for any possible upcoming posts about the series

You don't need to apologize for anything that you post in your own journal!

... Shrek was making fun of disney?

oh ffs i'm slow.

You don't need to apologize for anything that you post in your own journal!

Yeah, but since you started this post after your flist was talking about PMMM a lot.. and I made 1 or 2 or 3 posts about it, I feel partially guilty here ;p (not saying I wont make anymore posts about the series, just apologies in advance about spamming up your flist about it)

For the record I didn't find any of your posts about PMMM annoying. It was definitely a combination of three posts from three other people on my flist that inspired me to make this post. ^^;;

I don't think that you should ever have to feel guilty about posting whatever you want on your LJ. That's what it's for. If other people don't like what you post about, they can just scroll past. I'm sure that a lot of people reading my journal either don't care about or downright dislike things Soul Eater, My Little Pony, James Goddamn Joyce, RL wank about teacher pay, and poems written in Sanskrit. But whatevs, it's my journal and I'll post what I want.

I mean, there's a reason why I posted this rant in my journal and not in the comments on anybody's else post squeeing about PMMM. Because it's not my place to dictate what other people are allowed to squee about on their own journals, whether I happen to personally loathe the subject of their enjoyment or not. ;)

>>(Fortunately the second movie was!)

Heh, I never liked the 2nd movie. One and Three (3 being < 1) weren't bad but 2, I couldn't get behind.

>> by the time that Gunslinger Girl and Higurashi were doing it.

Gunslinger Girl I do like; no "One of Us!"? D:

Heh, I never liked the 2nd movie. One and Three weren't bad but 2, I couldn't get behind.

Well clearly you just don't *~get~* it. (*pretentious sniff*)

Just kidding. ;) For the record I really liked 2 and 3, but when I saw the first one it just never made me laugh. Maybe if I went back and watched it again I would like it better now, I dunno.

Oh, congrats on making J-tor's front page with that. Awesome on your part.

BTW- agreed on your opinion of the show- I see the reasons people may not like it, but I'm still liking it for what it is.

J-tor?

japanator.com They put that up as their featured AMV of the week.

Oh hey cool! Thanks for letting me know :3

My my... Do people really compare it with Utena? That's just stupid.

I do watch Madoka Magica, but mostly because there is not much to watch this season. And because of Kajiura Yuki's music. Also, the red-haired girl (Sakura?) reminds me of Mara, which is fun. Other than that, it's a mediocre show that pretends to be original.

I guess not being involved into big fandoms helps me to just watch series without them being ruined by either crazy lovers or crazy haters.

Uh...... s-sorry? /sensing that it was my post that set this off

It wasn't just your post.

I tried finding this show to see what people were talking about, but I could never find episode one, so I gave up. It sounds different, my sister was in love with CCS for years, so I get the magical girl theme attraction. Utena was...odd, and it was hard to watch the movie 'cause my parents are really really opinionated about stuff and would have started ranting if they had seen certain scenes. Perhaps I'll hunt it down again later, but it's not a big deal.

And I also fall into the category of being accused of 'just not getting' movie/Tv show humor all the time. Makes me roll my eyes too.

Well, that's a show I won't be trying (not that I'd heard of it before your post - for an anime/manga fan, I can be oddly out of the loop).

I hate the "you just don't get it" thing, too. Not only can people "get" a thing and dislike it, but people can see very, very different things in the same movie/show/book/what-have-you. (For example, I "get" It's a Wonderful Life, but what I see in it is not the message fans get out of it.)

And can we be done with grimdark = realistic/more mature/better already? Everywhere? Please?

I'm woefully out of it when it comes to new series (combination of no time and outgrowing it ~~never mind I still play video games religiously~~), so I haven't even heard of this series. I am now kind of interested just for the sake of seeing how bad it is (and this is coming from a guy who looked up the worst movies ever made and watched Catwoman because of it, all out of boredom).

But yes, series/games/works which are inherently pretentious in general have rather rabid fan-bases. But yes, I am in total agreement with you that making something more gory is not making it more mature. It's just shock value with no substance.

Am intrigued by this notion of deconstructing magical girl stuff/relations to feminism/anime that "do it right" vs. anime that "do it wrong." Will have to check out all these titles and give it some thought. I'm long overdue for a new anime/manga, anyway.

Related: How is it that you manage to keep all up to date on the Trendy New Anime/Manga stuff? I feel so out of the loop lately. :/

I just read the TV schedules on the major networks and check out anything that looks interesting. Usually I only end up following about one show per season, but because of my flist and blogroll I know about most of the shows currrently running. That's all.

Nenena hates this show too- but I think Yukemui Merry does a pretty good job of getting it right from this season.

As a bonus, even gets the guy right.

Hey now, I never said that I hated Yumekui Merry. Just that it wasn't my cuppa. ;)

Well, I find Panty and Stocking a tad enjoying because of some dynamic fightscenes, music and jokes, not because of its oh-so 'original' southpark aura: Y'know, a cartoonlooking anime with sex and swearing to let it look 'mature' or 'cool'. Though, the cartoonlook is nice, NOT is the originalsouthpark,aura around it.

And there sure are more factors that come to play before you decide on a show's uniqueness: animation, plot, storytelling with its POV, music, pace, sentiment, intelligence and knowledge(which I think plays a bigger role for a show's maturness, Roald Dahl's Mathilda was also intelligent enough to read adult books for her young age)

Not that I mean SP is original in itself either.

While I actually like Madoka Magica I see where you are coming from. And half of what you said people is saying about the show is stupid.

Madoka is not original or clever. But seems like people needs their shows to be clever so they feel they have a select taste, ie. K-ON is clever because "lol references to western musicians".

Neither is soemthing new and unique, people have been calling on this since ages, citing examples even from the 80's.
Seriously, nowadays practically everything has been done, "originality" is overrated.
Personally the "different" factor it has for me it's context. Lately you have lots of shows about cute girls doing cute things, to "warn the heart" and stuff, Madoka was advertised as to be such a heart warming show and it's not. That's all, if I have watched this before the K-ON shows were the popular stuff I wouldn't have give a shit about it. More than anything this is trolling every concept from the modern moe. I don't usually like magical girl shows so it's why I like this.
And while liking this I don't understand the insane popularity it gets. And seriously, while I like the subversion stuff it still has too many moe material keep as simple and plain moe pandering Sayaka/Kyoko have no other name.

BTW I didn't knew people liked Panty and Stocking for moe subversion, the people I usually saw was "lots of western references= funniest humor ever" and the Japanese were directly "Kawaii Stocking, Kawaii Panty".

I don't know if what I said makes sense, I can't express my opinion about this show properly in English and I keep using the words I see everywhere.
Also I'm kind of sorry for my "love MSMM" posts, it's the same I have been going through with SENOT so I know how annoying it can get.

But seems like people needs their shows to be clever so they feel they have a select taste

This. This is completely true. I think it explains a lot of the more overzealous fan reaction to shows like Panty&Stocking and Madoka Magica in a nutshell.

Also I'm kind of sorry for my "love MSMM" posts,

You don't need to apologize for what you post in your journal. Seriously. I'm not going to stop fangirling SENot! so you shouldn't feel guilty about fangirling Madoka Magica. ;)

This

I wish people would get off their high horses with that "MY SHOW IS CLEVAR, SO I'M CLEVAR, SO THERE" mentality.

I admit that I like Panty & Stocking, but the truth is that P&S is not a deconstruction or a clever metaphor, or whatever it is they're calling it these days. It is pure guilty pleasure.

I actually like Madoka Magica, but I definitely see where you're coming from. I don't think the show was created with the intent to be epic; rather, people are just giving the show too much credit. As for the Utena comparison that's been flying around, Utena showed all of its characters, most notably the female characters, transcending to a more liberated state (thus a revolution). Madoka has yet to do that. Unless it takes a 180 degree spin in the next 3-4 episodes, MSMM emphasizes how bad it is to try and become empowered and do the impossible (i.e. Sayaka's wish to heal Kyousuke). That's definitely not akin to the genre, where female empowerment is the idea behind the magic itself.

If anything, I find Madoka a parody, troll-happy take on the magical girl genre. I mean, Madoka has yet to do anything magic-related, the opening doesn't really represent the show itself, and Kyuubee is obviously from Verizon Wireless (make a contract with meeee!!). Kyoko is kind of cool, but I have a feeling she's going to have her head chomped off in the next episode or so.

Excuse the incoherency of my comment. I just came back from a personal training session...

Your SE post earlier prompted me to jump over and see if you had posted any other SE-related tidbits (thank you for all of those, forever, by the way) but I'm kinda drawn to anything PMMM at the moment so I had to check our your PMMM rant.

I don't see the series (thus far) as trying to crush the idea of girls seeking empowerment.

It seems to be, very plainly, about girls trying to seek their empowerment by using shortcuts like wishes, magic, and supernaturalism in general.

Madoka is the example: she plainly stated she desperately wants to help others and be useful and, at one point, she felt she had to become a magical girl to do so. Why should she? She does happen to be the super timid, worried, and cowering type yet she saved the lives of a room full of people by doing something very brave without resorting to magical abilities. (Why does this get overlooked by those who bash Madoka?)

The series is showing that the tropes of the uniquely special (magical) heroine as a trap. Why is this bad? As Madoka's friends suffer the consequences of their shortcuts to greatness (maturity?), her mother is the counter: a grown woman who lives her life by her own choosing and is satisfied by it even though it's challenging.

So sorry for butting in, but I think this series has the potential to trump the "empowerment" through magic message that you seem interested in protecting. It's a bit insulting to tell girls they can be kick-ass awesome IF they are discovered to be "special" or can acquire supernatural abilities.

For the comparisons to the always and forever awesome Utena, the staff are obviously riffing on the visual and musical styles in that show. Utena is a great (but largely forgotten) series that isn't referenced enough.
The messaging is running similar too: Don't sacrifice yourself for the sake of others if you can't understand and let go of your personal selfish reasons for doing so. Be distrustful of strangers offering easy ways out. Understand and accept both the motivations and the consequences of your actions. You don't need extra ordinary miracles, wishes, powers, ect, to either power or justify your actions. Life is hard and we are best in dealing with it when we do so honestly.
How true this is for PMMM remains to be seen, but the presence of Madoka's positive mother makes me pretty confident we aren't going to see un-magical girls slink off into total helplessness cuz being a magical girl sucks.

Really though, f you aren't enjoying the show, you shouldn't watch it anymore! Don't let others prod you into wasting your time like that. If you're miserable watching PMMM, it's not PMMM's fault, it's your own ;)
But I wanted to point out that the series is not automatically as anti-female as your post is arguing.

(*facepalm*) This is kind of the reason why I posted about Madoka Magica in my own journal instead of picking a fight about it in the comments on somebody else's journal. Because that's fucking exhausting for both parties involved. But heck, since you seem sincere about wanting to defend the show, I'll bite.

I don't see the series (thus far) as trying to crush the idea of girls seeking empowerment. It seems to be, very plainly, about girls trying to seek their empowerment by using shortcuts like wishes, magic, and supernaturalism in general.

And this is a problematic premise in a world in which magic and supernaturalism exist, period.

There are clearly supernatural monsters in the world of Madoka Magica. Not all of them are the results of the magical girl circle of cannibalism, either. (If Kyuubei exists, then it follows that other sinister magical creatures must exist, too.) If supernatural monsters exist and prey upon girls and women, then it follows that there should be power available to girls and women to fight those things. Supernatural power.

Also, I'm sorry, but I just don't see the whole magic thing being presented as a "shortcut." I don't see that at all. I squint and I stare at this damn series and I just don't see where the magic is being presented as an easy, quick way out. It is being presented as empowerment and it is being presented as a way to overcome the limitations of reality, but that's not the same as being a *shortcut*. Magic still comes at a high cost and even from the beginning it was presented to the girls as "there's nothing easy about this." Magic in MM is presented as a way to make the impossible possible, but it was never presented as easy or a shortcut to anything.

So sorry for butting in, but I think this series has the potential to trump the "empowerment" through magic message that you seem interested in protecting.

You missed the point.

I never argued that magic was the only legit way that female empowerment is promoted in magical girl shows. I'm not interested in "protecting" that message. That was why I listed all of those shows that deconstruct that idea (and do it damn well), remember? But if we're talking about straight-up magical girl shows, then I would also argue that a) the "magical empowerment" in those shows has always been presented as a metaphor and yes, even your average five-year-old girl is smart enough to get that and b) it's not just about girls using magic, it's also about girls using combat skills, weapons, and - yes - violent power. That's where the deconstruction comes from. Media is full of messages about girls being empowered through "soft" means like radiating bravery, courage, offering emotional support, the power of friendship, etc. There's nothing wrong with these messages, but at the same time that's the reason that depictions of little girls using weapons and martial arts to fight against monsters is a kick in the balls of the status quo. It's a way to show little girls that the same empowerment fantasies that we feed to little boys can be their empowerment fantasies, too. Like I said in my post, another way that MM goes seriously shallow in its whole approach to deconstructing magical girls is that it's (thoughtlessly and unintentionally perhaps, but still) consistently equating girls doing violence with eeeeeeeevil. Not that I support the idea of girls doing violence IRL, but in the context of a fictional world in which scary supernatural monsters exist? That is where the idea of girls being empowered through monster-destroying violence is appropriate.

Really though, f you aren't enjoying the show, you shouldn't watch it anymore! Don't let others prod you into wasting your time like that. If you're miserable watching PMMM, it's not PMMM's fault, it's your own ;)

I was only watching it to see if the prediction that I made about Kyuubei back in episode 3 would turn out to be true.

Turns out, it was.

But I wanted to point out that the series is not automatically as anti-female as your post is arguing.

Forgive me, but I remain unconvinced.

I looked into the the series since I was curious to what you were ranting about and...
Mm. Can see where your coming from most definitely.
Kinda makes me hope for an ending that rebuffs the whole idea of that female empowerment is an evil thing.
Maybe Madoka will step up to the plate and find an alternate power source to stop the grimdark cycle, even if she isn't the 'main heroine'.
[/shrugs] But I'm probably too idealistic since I haven't watched the series and it's supposed to be a deconstruction of sorts, seems unlikely.
I've also learnt to avoid the rabid fandoms in general since they tend to taint my enjoyment of various shows/games/etc. Or make me feel annoyed by their hyp-ing.

I haven't seen this anime yet...now I'm curious to see just how bad it is. XD

I know all of two of the shows you mentioned above, frankly I greatly enjoyed Princess Tutu, and I unfortunately only got in a few episodes of Utena. But what I saw I liked...

It's funny how everytime you post something on your LJ, it changes my opinions on stuff.....

ANYway! It seems that people do not like this Madoka Magica thing....

Cute Girls with extra extra EXTRA gore..... Hmm... I think I'll like this :D
I started watching an episode, and a lot of people were injured in their cute nature..... no offense, but I kinda like it :)

You don't need to apologize for liking it! :) Just don't write me an eight-paragraph treatise about why my reasons for disliking the show are *wrong* and we're cool.

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I have been biting my tongue while the rest of my flist posts about Madoka Magica.

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Er, sorry...

Re: Er, sorry...

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Hmm...

Hmm..... Gore.....

Re: Hmm..... Gore.....