nenena: (Devi - WTF?!)
nenena ([personal profile] nenena) wrote2010-09-26 12:51 pm

Holy Fappin' Fandom Misogyny, Batman!

[ETA: Kritik has edited his blog post in as a result of the discussion in the comments here. Ergo I now withdraw my objections to his post in light of the fact that his edit is a) directly addressing and challenging the sexist stereotypes that were in his original post and b) kind of awesome. However, in the interest of preserving the discussion itself, I'm leaving my original post unedited and intact below. I stand by everything that I wrote about prostitution and stereotypes thereof, even if I retract any specific accusations against AnimeKritik for repeating said stereotypes. Anywhoo, original post is below.]

Y'know, I'm used to seeing and hearing a fair amount of sexism in the Soul Eater fandom. The amount of misogynistic poo that gets flung at Maka on a regular basis just for daring to be a girl in the starring role of a shounen action series doesn't surprise me anymore.

But Animekritik?

Dude, I seriously thought better of you. I mean, I respected you so much. Until this morning.

I mean, Jesus Christ, dude, what the hell are you smoking?!

http://animekritik.wordpress.com/2010/09/25/soul-eater-78-salvage-the-future/

Opening quote: "There is one advantage to being the child of a prostitute: you don’t have to go through all the trouble of disabusing yourself of the illusion that you are anything other than an accident." AND IT GOES DOWNHILL FROM THERE.

I was kind of expecting some misogyny to start coming out of the woodwork ever since Ohkubo revealed that Liz's mother was a prostitute. But I'm still flabbergasted that AnimeKritik, of all people, would be the first and most spew-worthy source of it.

For the record:

Liz states explicitly that she resents her mother for abandoning her. Not for being a prostitute.

Liz ended up on the street because her mother abandoned her. Not because her mother was a prostitute.

We don't know whether Liz's mother wanted children or not. We don't know why she abandoned Liz, whether her reasons were selfish or selfless, or what the whole story behind that was. We don't know why she became a prostitute. We don't know whether or not prostitution was the only thing that she did. We don't know whether she engaged in sex work out of choice or out of desperation.

We don't know.

But to simply assume that Liz's mother was a shallow whore who a) only got pregnant by accident and b) abandoned her children because of purely selfish reasons, and to make these assumptions simply because of the fact that Liz's mother was a prostitute, IS INCREDIBLY FUCKING SEXIST. It buys into the myths about prostitution that have real-world, harmful impact on women both within and without the sex industry.

Sex work can be a choice. Sex work might not be the only thing that a woman does - it doesn't have to define her. Many women who do or have ever prostituted themselves for whatever reason are loving, devoted mothers. Many women who want to quit being prostitutes are unable to do so because of the sexist attitudes toward prostitutes that permeate society and that are espoused by the likes of Msr. AnimeKritik and company.

Misogynistic attitudes and sexist myths about prostitutes make it easier IRL for sex workers to be abused, and harder for them to fight for legal rights and protections. Edumacate yourselves. No, really. Google Mariko Passion, The Prostitutes Education Network, or "sex work advocacy." You'll learn something new and probably get to see boobies while you're at it. It's a win-win.

And stop saying stupid shit about Liz's mother.

Really, fandom. Really.

[identity profile] devours.livejournal.com 2010-09-26 05:00 pm (UTC)(link)
this. This. THIS.

I've been waiting for the same type of feedback since the last chapter, but even so, I'm disappointed. It's ridiculous and extremely insulting. Thank you for writing this. ♥
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[identity profile] nenena.livejournal.com 2010-09-26 05:24 pm (UTC)(link)
You're welcome.

What scares me is that the chapter hasn't even been scanslated yet, so a good chunk of the fandom hasn't even read it yet. There's probably more and worse poo-flinging from the fandom still to come.

[identity profile] redbrunja.livejournal.com 2010-09-26 05:05 pm (UTC)(link)
*shakes head*

You know, I feel really bad for Animekritik, but that doesn't make anything you said in this post less than 100% true.

(I haven't read SE in a while, but I kind of find the fact that Liz's mother was a prostitute AWESOME. Also, are she and Patti sisters by blood?)
Edited 2010-09-26 17:06 (UTC)
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[identity profile] nenena.livejournal.com 2010-09-26 05:22 pm (UTC)(link)
Yep, sisters by blood.

We don't know if they had the same father or different fathers, but they have the same mother. And we know that Liz resents her mother for abandoning her, not for being a prostitute. Which makes me think that Liz would likely have been okay with her mother being a sex workers as long as her mother had kept her and Patti instead of abandoning them for whatever reason. We do know that Liz wanted to have been able to stay with her mother. To me that speaks volumes about Liz being not particularly judgmental about what her mother did with her body.

[identity profile] redbrunja.livejournal.com 2010-09-26 05:47 pm (UTC)(link)
We do know that Liz wanted to have been able to stay with her mother. To me that speaks volumes about Liz being not particularly judgmental about what her mother did with her body.

Very much agreed.

[identity profile] fledglingoflove.livejournal.com 2010-09-26 05:30 pm (UTC)(link)
I think I accidentally spoiled the most recent chapter for myself by reading this post ^^;; I haven't read it yet because I'm waiting for Manga Stream's translation.
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[identity profile] nenena.livejournal.com 2010-09-26 05:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, WHOOPS. I'm going to add a spoiler warning to the cut tag right now.

I apologize for forgetting about that!

[identity profile] corinn.livejournal.com 2010-09-26 06:52 pm (UTC)(link)
I just have no coherent words on the sexism, so I'll nitpick at something else:

Liz was born a Nietzschean nihilist
+
you don’t have to go through all the trouble of disabusing yourself of the illusion that you are anything other than an accident... the rest of us... will cling on to this dream of having come into being for a reason and thus, with a purpose... We are all accidents.
=
The blogger is faaaar more of a Nietzschean nihilist than Liz with all the "we are all accidents, none of us have a purpose, there is no meaning to our existence." ("Nietzsche characterized nihilism as emptying the world and especially human existence of meaning, purpose, comprehensible truth, or essential value.") I mean, goddamn. Way to project.

If anything, I'd call Liz a cynic with a touch of hedonism. Even that seems a stretch to me given Liz's attitude about Patti.

[Deleted and reposted for HTML fail. I miss having an "edit comment" function.]
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[identity profile] nenena.livejournal.com 2010-09-26 06:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Psst - You do now!

Or you should in a few moments. :)

[identity profile] corinn.livejournal.com 2010-09-27 09:36 am (UTC)(link)
What.

WHAT.

WHAT?!

Nena~! I love you~! I could kiss you! *bawls with joy at getting her icons and edit function back* (ಥヮಥ) ♥

♥ THANK YOU ♥ THANK YOU ♥ THANK YOU ♥ THANK YOU ♥ THANK YOU ♥ THANK YOU ♥ THANK YOU ♥ THANK YOU ♥

However can I pay you back?

ETA (TEE HEE!): I can track individual threads again, too! Yes! No more inbox-flooding! (ಥヮಥ)
Edited 2010-09-27 23:44 (UTC)
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[identity profile] nenena.livejournal.com 2010-09-28 12:04 am (UTC)(link)
You don't need to pay me back. It's a gift. :)

[identity profile] animekritik.wordpress.com (from livejournal.com) 2010-09-27 01:15 am (UTC)(link)
I'm pasting this fro where I put it below.

You are correct in your definition. Nietzsche was not a nihilist, but he was the man who saw the coming of nihilism and described it sharply in the 19th century. Nietzsche's whole mission was to overcome nihilism, yes. What I mean by Nietzschean nihilism is nihilism as Nietzsche described it (in Will to Power, for example). I think many characters in Soul Eater are really trying to go beyond this nihilism (I think a lot of Black Star's struggle relates to this). By the way, by saying Liz goes beyond nihilism I don't mean she's adopting Nietzsche's solution either (I don't think she would relate to Zarathustra's dismissal of pity, for example)..

[identity profile] animekritik.wordpress.com (from livejournal.com) 2010-09-26 07:18 pm (UTC)(link)
You've misunderstood my post.

"We don't know whether Liz's mother wanted children or not. We don't know why she abandoned Liz, whether her reasons were selfish or selfless, or what the whole story behind that was. We don't know why she became a prostitute. We don't know whether or not prostitution was the only thing that she did. We don't know whether she engaged in sex work out of choice or out of desperation.

We don't know."

I totally agree. My point was precisely that the world will assume they know everything about her because of the prejudice involved despite the fact that they don't know.

I think you took my description of how unthinking people deal with these matters and assumed I supported it. I don't. I was writing against the "world" here, not against Liz and her Mom. How could I? Liz is one of my favorite characters.

We don't know the reason Liz's mother got pregnant. Society will assume it was an accident. That gives Liz the perfect chance, if she can weather all of the abuse the world throws at her (and she has), to realize that at a deeper level we are all accidents (I was thinking of Heidegger here) and through that to become a cool, autonomous individual.

Mind you, I'm aware many (most?) people will consider my philosophical positions idiotic and that's fine. But I'm not a misogynist, nor do I hate prostitutes.

And FYI, I think Maka is cool too.

AK
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[identity profile] nenena.livejournal.com 2010-09-26 09:05 pm (UTC)(link)
From your post:

There is one advantage to being the child of a prostitute: you don’t have to go through all the trouble of disabusing yourself of the illusion that you are anything other than an accident.

So you intended for this to be "society's" argument, then, not your own opinion?

Along with the rest of this?

You don’t need explanations from Mom. It’s easy enough to visualize a nasty customer, or two, or three coming along and disobeying the rules. And out comes you. If your imagination is not that good there will be plenty of people ready to tell things to your face and give you all kinds of details. As if they had been there. Everybody thinks they’ve been there and done that. Whichever the truth of your past, everybody will think they know it inside out…intimately. When you are the child of a prostitute you are a child of the world. So it’s no good to explain things to them, which means you don’t have make stories for yourself either. This is without a doubt a great advantage.

You describe it as a "great advantage" for Liz to KNOW that she was an "accident" and that her mother only got pregnant because of a nasty customer "disobeying the rules."

If this was meant to be anything other than your own opinion, you are doing a piss-poor job of communicating as much.

She knew she was an accident, now she is learning that one can build over accidents.

Again, if this wasn't meant to be your own opinion/stance/view on Liz, you're doing an awfully convincing job of making it sound like this is what you really think.

From your comment:

I think you took my description of how unthinking people deal with these matters and assumed I supported it. I don't.

There is not a single word - not a single word - in your post that would indicate that you do not actually believe everything that you have written in it.

If you MEANT to be describing how "unthinking people" deal with these matters, then you failed. All you did was espouse an unthinking person's opinion. You failed to indicate in any way that you don't agree with the horrifically sexist stereotypes about prostitution that your post regurgitates.

If what you say in your comment here is true - if you really, truly believe differently than what you wrote in your post - then please, PLEASE, I urge you to go back and edit your post, clarifying the real reasons that you wrote what you did about Liz's mother.

Like I said, stereotypes about prostitutes cause real-world harm. Your post, which perpetuates those stereotypes about prostitutes, as it currently stands right now, is harmful to women, not to mention degrading and insulting. If you feel differently, then FFS, edit your post to get that meaning across. It's not there right now. It's not.

[identity profile] animekritik.wordpress.com (from livejournal.com) 2010-09-26 10:13 pm (UTC)(link)
My prose tends to be muddled and complicated, I admit. The first sentence is my own, sure. Children want to know where they come from, and if they don't ask, or they are met with silence, they will imagine things. And even if they don't imagine things there'll be plenty of people who will answer them (and if you're a prostitute's child the answers from even people that should know better, like your teacher, will often be less than kind). I've seen this happen.

"Everybody thinks they know you". Don't we see this everyday. "Oh, he came from a broken home" someone says, and immediately everyone imagines they know everything there is to know about the kid.

So what do you do here? You can self-destruct, and a lot of people do. Or you can really think about things and start to see the bigger picture (not about your origins and situations) but everyone's. Some of the coolest people I met in Thailand were some of those considered outcasts. They had taken advantage of having been thrown out by society to see it from the outside

I'm not saying that Liz imagined anything. I'm saying that the very possibility of imagining such things (whether by herself or from comments thrown out by others) could in the best case scenario lead to an awakening...


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[identity profile] nenena.livejournal.com 2010-09-26 10:32 pm (UTC)(link)
"Muddled," yes. "Complicated," no. There is a very simple issue at stake here, and you're dancing around it without addressing it.

Many people assume that a prostitute would only have a child as an accident. This is a horrifically harmful, offensive, sexist stereotype.

Your post states that Liz was an accident because her mother was a prostitute. This is stating a horrifically harmful, offensive, sexist stereotype.

If you do not actually believe this opinion, then you need to state as much, and state it really fucking clearly. You may be able to get away with muddling your writing in other posts, but in this case you're dealing with incredibly harmful stereotypes and the stakes are too high for you to get away with being muddled about things. If you don't make it CRYSTAL CLEAR that you don't agree with the harmful stereotype that is stated in your post, then your post is merely stating a harmful stereotype and actually hurting women in the process.

If your post is about the possibility of Liz imagining that she was an accident, or the likelihood of the rest of society telling Liz that she was an accident, then why not just come out and state that? It will take two sentences. It will fix your entire post. Why not do it? This isn't rocket science, dude. It should be a very, very simple thing to edit your post and insert one or two lines that makes it clear that you're writing about society's opinion of prostitutes rather than your own opinion of prostitutes. So why are you wasting your time overexplaining, overcomplicating, furiously backpedaling, and scrambling to justify yourself in the comments here? Just fix your freakin' post and there won't be any more problem!

Until you make clear that the harmful stereotype in your post is just that - a harmful stereotype - and not your own opinion about the matter, then we're still going to have a problem.

PS - Everything that you just wrote in the comment above? Brilliant and totally awesome. But ABSOLUTELY NOT WHAT YOU WROTE IN YOUR POST. Again, if this is what you meant to be communicating in your blog post, then you gotta go back and fix that. Right now absolutely nothing in your above comment is coming through in any part of your blog post.

[identity profile] animekritik.wordpress.com (from livejournal.com) 2010-09-27 12:13 am (UTC)(link)
I can't shake the feeling that you actually believe I am all these things that you began accusing me of, and that you think all of my explaining is just a lie to try to make myself look good.

I tried to clarify things in my post, as I definitely wouldn't like readers thinking of me that way. I guess it's a good thing that you pointed it out, otherwise I would have never even dreamed that it could be construed as being anti-prostitute or anti-woman.

p.s. Corinn is correct in her definition. Nietzsche was not a nihilist, but he was the man who saw the coming of nihilism and described it sharply in the 19th century. Nietzsche's whole mission was to overcome nihilism, yes. What I mean by Nietzschean nihilism is nihilism as Nietzsche described it (in Will to Power, for example). I think many characters in Soul Eater are really trying to go beyond this nihilism (I think a lot of Black Star's struggle relates to this). By the way, by saying Liz goes beyond nihilism I don't mean she's adopting Nietzsche's solution either (I don't think she would relate to Zarathustra's dismissal of pity, for example)..
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[identity profile] nenena.livejournal.com 2010-09-27 12:56 am (UTC)(link)
I can't shake the feeling that you actually believe I am all these things that you began accusing me of, and that you think all of my explaining is just a lie to try to make myself look good.

Frankly, until I saw your second comment here, that is exactly what I believed. And given what you said in your post, I don't think that you can blame me.

A large part of my visceral reaction to your post, however, came from the fact that well, it's you. And I have a lot of respect for you. So reading what you wrote in your blog post was like getting a verbal sucker-punch from the absolute last person in the fandom that I would ever expect to say anything so stupidly sexist.

I'm glad that you clarified your post and I'm glad that you were able to get your real meaning across. I'm a bit shocked, however, to read that you "never even dreamed" that your post could be construed as anti-prostitute and anti-woman. If that's really the way that you still feel about your post in its original form, then I think that you need to take a step back and more carefully read over what you wrote. And in the future, I would strongly suggest that you be more careful about the way that you write about stereotypes in any of your blog posts.

Stereotypes have power because they are ideas that are repeated without being challenged. When you flat-out state a stereotype in your writing and then never challenge the same idea, you are giving that stereotype power. And you are leading your readers to believe that YOU believe the stereotype, as long as you never give any indication otherwise.

As for your response to Corinn's comment, I'd suggest that you C&P that into a response to Corinn's actual comment. I know that Corinn likes having discussions about Nietzche with other thinky-thoughts people, but she'll never see your response here unless you reply to her comment. You can hit the "Reply to this" link beneath Corinn's comment to reply to her directly.

Thank you again for editing your post to directly address and challenge the stereotypes about prostitution that you mentioned. Yay! :) Now off to edit my post.

[ridiculous post I probably shouldn't submit]

[identity profile] corinn.livejournal.com 2010-09-27 09:55 am (UTC)(link)
I know that Corinn likes having discussions about Nietzche with other thinky-thoughts people

[response to semi-deliberately extremely literal interpretation of comment]
LOL I need to read up on Nietzche when I'm actually awake. It's been a decade since AP Psych. *indulges in nostalgic memories of that wacky, wacky 6:55am class; good times, good times*
[/response to semi-deliberately extremely literal interpretation of comment]

DELICIOUS RESEARCH and LEARNING and THINKY-THOUGHT DISCUSSION! WOOHOO! I have a couple vague responses in my head, but refuse to even try to research and respond when 80% asleep and punchy. It won't end well.

I haven't delved into psychology in quite awhile. *cracks mental knuckles*



[/ridiculous post I probably shouldn't submit]
Seriously, what is with me looking at your journal in the wee hours and inflicting you with comments that demonstrate how ridiculously babbly and just plain ridiculous I get when tired? Seriously.

[identity profile] the-sun-is-up.livejournal.com 2010-09-27 01:12 am (UTC)(link)
There is one advantage to being the child of a prostitute: you don’t have to go through all the trouble of disabusing yourself of the illusion that you are anything other than an accident. [...] This is without a doubt a great advantage.

Yes! Being the kid of a prostitute is ttly awesome! Wait, what!? NO. Just no.

For the rest of us, well, it will take a long time to figure this out. We will cling on to this dream of having come into being for a reason and thus, with a purpose. But it doesn’t matter with what precision Mom and Dad planned us, it matters even less what they expected from us…they will never, never get it. We are all accidents.

Jeez, I feel like I've time-warped back one or two years and am reading one of Jacob's pretentiously philosophical BSG recaps on TWOP. D: Also, it sounds like the writer of this piece has some major mommy/daddy issues.

(Though regarding Maka, maybe I'm hanging out in a different part of fandom from you, but I've been pleasantly surprised by how little bashing she gets for Being A Girl. SE fandom is certainly miles better in that respect than all the other shonen fandoms I've been in.)
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[identity profile] nenena.livejournal.com 2010-09-27 01:27 am (UTC)(link)
maybe I'm hanging out in a different part of fandom from you

Probably yes, as long as you're sticking to livejournal and avoiding the discussion board communities. ;)

[identity profile] the-sun-is-up.livejournal.com 2010-09-27 01:37 am (UTC)(link)
Aha, that would explain it. I tend to avoid the forums like the plague (unless I'm screamingly desperate for fanart) because the combination of dumb wank, annoyingly large signatures, and horrible mangling of the English language tends to make my eyes bleed.

[identity profile] vega-jd.livejournal.com 2010-09-27 02:48 am (UTC)(link)
Holy crap, that Feminist.com article was very good, thanks for sharing it.

Also, I agree with you above, I've always defended prostitutes from senseless bashing, because it's not like they're taking advantage of poor horny men, it's a business. Men pay for a service, prostitutes deliver said service, what's wrong with that? There are plenty of women who don't work as prostitutes and have sex with different men for the heck of it, and it's not illegal because there's no money involved. They don't get treated like criminals, because they do it for enjoyment. That makes no sense. It's like if giving away chocolate for free is okay, but selling it is wrooong and can get you in prison.

And I've always, since a young age, thought that prostitution should be legal, it would remove a lot of the stigma attached to it, and help people see it for what it really is: a job. A job which some enjoy and some don't, like any other job.

Except for child prostitution, though. That's an entirely different story...
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[identity profile] nenena.livejournal.com 2010-09-27 05:05 am (UTC)(link)
Well, that goes without saying.

Which is exactly why it's so important to not buy into the myths and stereotypes about prostitution - because those myths and stereotypes make it harder for sex workers to have rights and protections, and easier for sex workers to be exploited and abused - especially children.

[identity profile] belle-soeur.livejournal.com 2010-09-27 07:44 pm (UTC)(link)
nenena, I am sorry for this intrusion. If you say you respect someone so very much, why not trust if not this person, then your sense of respect and try making out first what s/he writes about? I am sure you know the difference between narrator and author and that the former may be not equal to the latter. If you fell for it, it is to the author's credit, actually. Animekritik's post is brilliantly written, the message is absolutely clear and requires no introductions, plus style and a lot of things to chew on. And for the record, Animekritik never uses the term "shallow whore" in the said post.

While challenging a horde of old stereotypes, try not to fall victim to horrible new ones, like children as sex workers...
It hurts common sense, more than anything.
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[identity profile] nenena.livejournal.com 2010-09-27 10:35 pm (UTC)(link)
why not trust if not this person, then your sense of respect and try making out first what s/he writes about?

I did. I read the post. I reacted to exactly what the post said.

If you fell for it, it is to the author's credit, actually.

Aw hell no.

It would be to the author's credit to fool his readers if he were, say, faking a Martian invasion of the Earth or making Marble Hornets videos. But writing about sexist stereotypes isn't something that the author should ever, EVER try to fool people into believing that he sides with. Not all literacy fakery is equivalent. Pretending to play the mouthpiece for society's sexist (or racist, or homophobic, or whatever) beliefs is a repugnant endeavor.

Animekritik's post is brilliantly written, the message is absolutely clear and requires no introductions.

Apparently not, given the reaction that me and many other have had to it.

If he failed to communicate his intent and meaning, then he failed to communicate his intent and meaning. And this was pointed out to him. So then he clarified and succeeded in communicating his intent and meaning. End of story. Everybody wins, so there's no reason to dredge up more drama about it now. ^^;;

While challenging a horde of old stereotypes, try not to fall victim to horrible new ones, like children as sex workers...

Uh, what exactly are you trying to say here?

[identity profile] belle-soeur.livejournal.com 2010-09-28 06:21 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, you say failed, I say succeeded. I can see the things Animekritik clarified in his introduction without this clarifying. I read the first sentence and I interpret it as Liz herself speaking/thinking. Then read the rest of the text accordingly. Some texts are polyphonic. Even if my interpretation is wrong, the first sentence indeed contains a strong controversy and bitter irony, which gives me a signal to read the rest very carefully… BY NO MEANS I want to say I am cleverer than you and can read between the lines, no. Just different people, different perceptions. I thought the other side may as well say what it has to say.

No drama. Although I’d say you owe an apology for being rude and offensive to a real-life person you misinterpreted while ardently defending abstract prostitutes. Then everybody wins. But of course this is your blog and you are free to say what you like here.

As to your last question, read this sentence again and think what it implies:

…those myths and stereotypes make it harder for sex workers to have rights and protections, and easier for sex workers to be exploited and abused - especially children.

But this has nothing to do either with Animekritik or Soul Eater, so we may as well drop it.
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[identity profile] nenena.livejournal.com 2010-09-28 08:36 pm (UTC)(link)
abstract prostitutes.

There is no such thing as an "abstract" prostitute. And how dare you assume that I have no connection to anybody involved in sex work IRL. How dare you assume that my reaction is based on "abstract" ideas about prostitution and not on real life experience seeing people that I care about hurt by exactly the same stereotypes about prostitution that Animekritik regurgitated in the original version of his post.

As to your last question, read this sentence again and think what it implies: "…those myths and stereotypes make it harder for sex workers to have rights and protections, and easier for sex workers to be exploited and abused - especially children."

My sentence implies nothing, it states exactly what it means. Exploitation and abuse of sex workers is bad, yes? Sexual exploitation of children is bad, yes? I would hope that we're on the same page about this, so I'm baffled as to what your objection to my position could be.

Edited to add: My initial response to your comment here was shorter than I wanted it to be due to the horrified rage that I felt when I read your asinine line demanding an apology, so I decided to check my anger, give you the benefit of the doubt, and sleep on it...

...And now, having slept on it, nope, it's still a really fucking awful thing that you just said.

I quote again:

Although I’d say you owe an apology for being rude and offensive to a real-life person you misinterpreted while ardently defending abstract prostitutes.

Again, there is no such thing as an "abstract" prostitute, WTF. Your assumptions about my experiences and connections to people who engage in sex work aside, here's the crux of the argument: My entire objection against Kritik's original post was that, they way that it was worded, it was repeating a stereotype that causes real-world, harmful impact to women involved in sex work. Those women are real people too. Whether I know or care about any of them does not change the fact that they are real people. Whether you know or care about anybody involved in sex work does not change the fact that they are real people. The fact that you may not be able to attach a specific name or internet handle to a person does not make that person any less "real." The fact that you might not personally know anybody involved in sex work does not make the entire category of people involved in sex work any less "real" people. They are NOT any less "real" than some blogger on the internet. Their issues and their struggles are not any less important than those of some blogger on the internet.

You are drawing a false dichotomy when you say that AnimeKritik is "a real-life person" but that women engaged in sex work are all "abstract" in this argument. They aren't. This is the very heart of the issue, right here: Whether we view, think about, talk about, and write about women engaged in sex work as if they are REAL PEOPLE or not. The original version of Kritik's post failed to do so, which was why I objected to it. And since Kritik has since fixed his post, I have no more objection to it.

Your comment right here, though? Stinking of sexism and utter failure at having arrived at any sort of a basic understanding of what this whole discussion was about in the first place.

Kritik understood and fixed the problem. But you're just making it worse. If you mean to be defending Kritik here for whatever reason, I don't think you're doing a very good job of it. Quite the opposite, actually.
Edited 2010-09-29 07:50 (UTC)

[identity profile] comet-queen.livejournal.com 2010-10-08 12:45 am (UTC)(link)
I mean really, you're totally right. I kind f guessed that Liz and Patty were half-sisters and probably the daughters of a drug addict/prostitute(Becuase they took care of themselves) but that's no reason to bash liz she turned out better than many people in far better circumstances than her
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[identity profile] nenena.livejournal.com 2010-10-08 07:16 am (UTC)(link)
Er, I think you might have missed the point of my post. ^^;; I was objecting to the way that Kritik bashed Liz's mother, not to anything that he said about Liz herself.

(Anonymous) 2010-11-02 02:26 am (UTC)(link)
I find it hard to believe people would go to such extent to try and influence how others think.

I believe your world view is only valid (a bit) if you assume there's total determinism.

Face it, its ironic you rage so much when people use the word retard- when they just might lack the willingness (nurture) or mental capacity (nature) to adopt your views.

While I believe people are free to do as they wish, I dont see why society would have to help people live in whoredom. Dont get me wrong, I dont care if a women decides she has nothing better to do- but I really do not see why ANYONE should help them. Some will try, more will exploit them.

In the end, I'll enjoy the show.

Social darwinism FTW.

(Anonymous) 2010-11-02 02:28 am (UTC)(link)
Im really sorry for the double post, but I forgot.

I really love Soul Eater, and the autor is awesome- just got to remember its FICTION.

I hope the bear guy isnt dead :(
ext_6355: (Mahabrooks - liek omg OT3)

[identity profile] nenena.livejournal.com 2010-11-02 07:56 am (UTC)(link)
LOL. I love it how the only people who ever advocate "social darwinism" are naïve, sheltered nerds who still live in their mother's basement and who usually have absolutely zero experience living or working in the real world. Thank you for proving that to be true yet again. ;) I mean, seriously:

I find it hard to believe people would go to such extent to try and influence how others think.

Bless your precious little heart, you really don't have a clue, do you?

Nice try, 216.246.244.202, but no cigar. Come back and troll again after you've moved out of your mom's basement and have a bit more experience with how the real world works.

(Anonymous) 2010-11-02 01:35 pm (UTC)(link)
No I dont have your *clue*.
I bow down to your strawman shotgun.

You also jumped the gun and concluded I advocate for social darwninism.
I just have to problem with people killing each other as long as they do it away from me and my hands are clean.

Have a nice day.
ext_6355: (Default)

[identity profile] nenena.livejournal.com 2010-11-02 02:36 pm (UTC)(link)
"Social darwinism FTW" is not advocating for social darwinism?

I love it when trolls get defensive and stupid at the same time.

(Anonymous) 2010-11-02 11:30 pm (UTC)(link)
Before quoting anyone, you might want to read the context. (Which should have been the lesson learned with this livejournal entry...) In this case-


In the end, I'll enjoy the show.

Social darwinism FTW.


Enjoy the show- implies a lack of direct action or support.

Helping *people* live in whoredom... Really? See how popular thats gonna be - «in the real world».

All in all, all the real life drama makes a good show. And I'm not the one going crazy over abstract prostitutes.

On a unrelated note, I salute your respect for free speech. Too bad its overshadowed by your lack of civil discussion. I believe the name calling was uncalled for.

Moreover, you're quite awful at it. For an insult to work, there has to be an hint of truth in it.

«naïve, sheltered nerds who still live in their mother's basement and who usually have absolutely zero experience living or working in the real world«



I'd rather describe myself as free of delusions.
I'm not sheltered (lol), and I'm hardly a nerd- I have too many interests.

I've been working for years, and living on my own too.

I'd also guess the stereotype for a pro-social darwinist would be a neo-nazi?

I do not see how having 0 experience would trigger that- I would guess it is way more likely to happen if they live next to poor minority/ethnic communities.


If I were to insult you, I would say this (But I am not meaning any of it) :

/troll mode on

At least I can *get* stupid. Unlike you.

About Maka, Liz and Patty being useless, it seems you suffer from a severe case of

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealityIsUnrealistic

Seriously, when was the last time you saw a woman do ANYTHING heroic?? ... There isn't much to do in a kitchen.

/troll mode off

I hope you can now compare the two different styles, and realize I was not trolling.

Meh, comet_queen's post was epic trolling Imho.

P.S. «While challenging a horde of old stereotypes, try not to fall victim to horrible new ones, like children as sex workers...»

Uh, what exactly are you trying to say here?

If only I could read minds, --- made me o_O you too- no pretty words to be said here.
ext_6355: (Default)

[identity profile] nenena.livejournal.com 2010-11-03 01:47 am (UTC)(link)
Nah dude, you're still trolling, no matter how much you defensively try to prove that you're not. In fact, you're a textbook case of Concern Trolling: When somebody is delusional enough to believe that they have something worthwhile to contribute to a conversation, despite the fact that they spew nothing but aggressive idiocy with every word that they type. It's the lack of self-awareness that defines concern trolls.

(Anonymous) 2010-11-03 02:32 am (UTC)(link)
Its a shame, we'll never agree. Had to look it up on wikipedia (yeah, I know) ;

A concern troll is a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose actual point of view is opposed to the one that the user claims to hold.

I stand by every word I wrote. There's hardly nothing more time consumming than defending yourself from false accusations. You look defensive? You're damned. You dont defend yourself? You're fucked. Takes a dimwit to assume a willingness to explain oneself means one is guilty. The opposite is far more often true. I notice you nitpick posts - which is fine by me, as you believe its worthless... Hence, I'm done bothering you.

At this point, I give up.
ext_6355: (Default)

[identity profile] nenena.livejournal.com 2010-11-03 06:22 am (UTC)(link)
There's hardly nothing more time consumming than defending yourself from false accusations.

Too bad none of the "accusations" that I made against you were false, especially if you really do stand by every asinine word that you wrote.

Protip: You can complain all you want about how time-consuming it is to defend yourself, but the easier solution would be to not open your yap and vomit verbal idiocy in the first place. You don't want people to call you an idiot? Then stop saying idiotic things.

At this point, I give up.

That's the first intelligent thing you've said in five comments!